A Conversation with Guy Fawkes

A Conversation with Guy Fawkes

Interviewer

Is it true that your first name is actually Guido and not Guy?

No, it’s Guy. It’s an old English name going back to Guy of Warwick, one of the Crusaders. When I went to Spain as a soldier the locals couldn’t get their tongue around a simple name like Guy, rhyming with sky. They were struggling to say something like “Goo – ey”. Guido is the closest to a Spanish equivalent so I adopted that and used it again back in England after my arrest. During the plot I was given the false name of John Johnson.

Interviewer

We’ll come to the Gunpowder Plot but for now I’m intrigued that you could be drawn into such a treasonous activity when your upbringing seemed to be happy, healthy and wholesome.

Nice alliteration! And not just happy, healthy and wholesome. Also somewhat privileged. My dad was well paid in his profession as an ecclesiastical lawyer. All our needs were met but life was very ordered and controlled. I can remember craving for adventure from an early age.

Interviewer

It’s ironic that your father, as a lawyer specialising in ecclesiastical matters, was applying the very laws that in later life you would rebel against.

I see the irony but he was following in the path of his father before him. My ancestors include a number of high profile public servants. I was raised and educated in York and my grandmother Ellen Fawkes was the daughter of William Harrington, Mayor of York in the mid 1530s. He was heavily involved in a 1535 event barely remembered today but huge at the time and the precursor to later events including our gunpowder plot.

Interviewer

Are you talking about the Pilgrimage of Grace?

I am indeed and I’m surprised you’ve heard of it. What is hard to grasp is just how life was completely turned on its head for Catholics in the immediate aftermath of Henry VIII’s 1534 Act of Supremacy. All the monasteries and other church-related establishments such as schools were either abolished or taken over by Henry’s new Church of England or by the State. Those institutions had been the very essence of the Catholic way of life and overnight they ceased to exist. And this was even before any anti-Catholic laws were introduced.

Interviewer

So the Pilgrimage of Grace was launched in protest over the disestablishment of the monasteries in particular?

That was the big issue. The monasteries provided employment for many local people and food and other essentials for the poor.

Interviewer

You mentioned that there was a family connection and that your grandmother’s father – your own great-grandfather – became involved in the pilgrimage. Was he one of the protesting pilgrims?

Absolutely not. Just the very opposite. As I mentioned, he was Lord Mayor of York - the very heart of the establishment at local level. He was loyal to the King and readily embraced the new faith. There were many like him. Catholicism was fifteen hundred years old and seen by some as outdated and oppressive. But the bulk of the York population clung fervently to their Catholic faith and eagerly awaited the arrival of the protesters.

Interviewer

So what was your great-grandfather’s involvement?

The pilgrims marched on York and, as Mayor, he had to decide whether or not to open the gates of the city to them.

Interviewer

A difficult decision?

Not really. There were nine thousand of them. Even the whole of England had no standing army at that time. What chance was there for a small local militia! He had no choice but to let them in. They occupied the entire city and within months had restored priests and monks to their positions, restored the monasteries and re-introduced Catholic worship in the churches, declaring Church of England priests and bishops heretics. More rebels arrived and they eventually numbered 20,000.

Interviewer

I’m aware that the King’s officials eventually prevailed, despite the huge numbers. How did the uprising play out?

It continued to grow, occupying a wide area of northern England and eventually numbering more than 40,000. Most of them were armed. They drew up a list of twenty-four demands and so intimidating was the sheer size of the uprising that the Duke of Norfolk agreed to receive the demands.

Interviewer

What was the general tone of the demands?

Restore the Catholic Church to its original position, destroy the works of Luther, Wyclif, Husse and others, restore the abbeys and pardon all participants in the so called “act of commotion”. They also called for a new parliament to be established in either York or Nottingham,

Interviewer

Quite a shopping list. It sounds a bit optimistic. Were they seriously hopeful all those demands would be agreed to?

Well the first step was to persuade the Duke to take the demands to the King. He could have just turned the rebels down flat but he didn’t. In fact he agreed to two of the most important demands on his own initiative – issuing a general pardon and setting up the new parliament. So the rebels felt that, for the moment, it was “mission accomplished”. And by now the huge group had become unwieldy and restless, not to mention a bit bored. They decided to disband and await the outcome of their action.

Interviewer

Which was?

Everything turning to custard. The leading rebel, Robert Aske, managed to secure an audience with the King but was given nothing more than some vague promises. When the word of that got around an angry uprising in another area broke out in protest and the King used that as an excuse to tear up the list of demands and send a force to quell the new uprising before it got out of hand as the earlier one had.

Interviewer

Mission failed?

It was always going to. The Church of England had a firm grip on London and the south so the King and his chief advisor Thomas Cromwell had no trouble mustering a force to go north and restore the previous order. The rebel leaders were rounded up and executed.

Interviewer

I’m surprised at your level of knowledge of these events. They occurred more than thirty years before you were born. And you were raised as a protestant so would have no direct interest in the plight of catholics.

I’ve already explained the family connection – my great-grandfather William Harrington yielding to the protesters at the York city gate was a landmark event in English history. Stories as dramatic as that involving a family member get passed down. In 1540 after relinquishing the mayoralty he moved to a residence in Stonegate. I was born in that very house.

Interviewer

While we’re talking about connections, you said the pilgrimage was a precursor to later events, including the gunpowder plot.

Both were concerned with the same issues and there was certainly one family name common to both events. For more than two hundred years every Earl of Northumberland had the surname Percy. The 5^th Earl, Henry Percy, was executed in 1537 for his leading role in the Pilgrimage. His great-grandson Thomas Percy was one of my co-conspirators in the Gunpowder Plot. It was a fiercely radical Catholic family. Another descendant of Henry Percy became the seventh Earl and co-led another uprising. A much broader one in 1569.

Interviewer

Was that the Rising of the North, another attempt to restore Catholicism?

Correct. Also known as the Revolt of the Northern Earls. It differed from the Pilgrimage in that it didn’t just involve the common people. The nobility, the clergy, the upper classes all rose up in support. It was a huge protest which spread throughout the north of England.

Interviewer

Were the aims similar to those of the earlier Pilgrimage?

Much broader. The pilgrimage wanted King Henry to restore Catholicism. The northern Earls wanted to overthrow the monarch altogether, who by now was Queen Elizabeth. The uprising was the first of several throughout Elizabeth’s reign. The aim of all of them was to remove her and install Mary Queen of Scots. But nothing was achieved other than more discrimination and even tighter anti-Catholic laws.

Interviewer

And more executions?

Most of the Earls escaped to Scotland. But the Earl of Northumberland, another Thomas Percy, was captured and executed in 1572, just as his ancestor Henry had been in 1536 after the Pilgrimage of Grace. Multiple non-aristocratic participants were also executed after the northern rising.

Interviewer

Did the Earl of Northumberland, the ninth one and your contemporary, have any connection with the Gunpowder Plot?

Not the plot itself but he demonstrated his support for the Catholic cause by sending an envoy to James VI of Scotland. It was 1601 by then and the Earldom was held by another Henry Percy, and yes, he was the 9^th Earl. Scottish King James was the almost certain successor to the English throne and although raised a protestant he had been baptised in a Catholic ceremony. It was Northumberland’s plan to sound out the future King’s intentions regarding the rights of Catholics. And perhaps do a little persuading.

Interviewer

Who was sent as the envoy?

Thomas Percy. Our Thomas Percy. He was never in line for the Earldom but as the great-grandson of the 4^th Earl he had been appointed as the custodian of the Northumberland northern estates. The Earl had no hesitation in despatching his trusted family member on this rather unofficial mission.

Interviewer

Thomas Percy came back full of optimism but it turned out to be misplaced?

Percy returned home having received a promise from James that he would show more tolerance towards Catholics but made no promise that Catholic worship would be allowed openly under his rule. But Percy was walking on air and claimed his mission had been a great success. His enthusiasm caused the Catholic grapevine to exaggerate the success to the point where his confessor Father Oswald Tesimond later recalled “...he reported that the King would not only free Catholics from bondage but would admit them into every sector of public life...”.

Interviewer

But the King had made no such promise?

He undertook to be more lenient. But nothing more than that. When James became James I of England in 1603 on the death of Elizabeth and very little changed Percy was vilified for giving Catholics false hope. And after yet another two failed plots against the monarchy James totally reneged on any promises he might have made and tightened the anti-Catholic laws even further. Thomas Percy was furious. He was heard to declare he would “.....kill the king with my own hands.”

Interviewer

So he would have welcomed the opportunity to participate in the gunpowder plot.

Well, yes but he had concerns over “collateral damage”. The incumbent Earl, his employer and a relative, would be a victim of the explosion along with the King. Some of the other plotters had similar concerns knowing a family or household member could be a victim. There were still quite a few members of Parliament with Catholic sympathies.

Interviewer

Your situation was very different from Percy’s. He was descended from a family of Earls devoted to Catholicism and who had seen two of their number executed in attempts to restore the faith. But you were raised in the Church of England and your father was administering a law which itself was discriminatory against Catholics. How did your conversion emerge from that background?

It would have started in my early teens. One of my schoolmates at St Peter’s in York was Kit Wright and he and his older brother Jack both had an interest in history and had studied the multiple Catholic rebellions. As a young child I had known nothing of the uprisings but the Wrights shared their knowledge of them with me. They sounded like terrific adventures. And others at the school were quite knowledgeable regarding Catholicism. I’m sure some of them had secretly converted. My interest in the faith must have started at quite an early age.

Interviewer

I presume you had religious education at school. Schools had been obliged by law since 1534 to present only Church of England teaching. Was Catholicism and its history excluded totally from the curriculum?

My school took an extremely broad view of the subject. The lessons were necessarily based on the new faith but included teaching of the Catholic uprisings, albeit from a slightly anti-Catholic perspective.

Interviewer

Were there any Catholics on the teaching staff as far as you knew?

At the time we were not aware of it but later I discovered that the principal, Mr John Pulleyn, had been a closet Catholic all along, while openly attending Church of England services, as required by law. And even more startling was that his predecessor, John Fletcher, had not only also been Catholic but made no secret of it - attending Mass regularly and taking the sacraments. He was rewarded with a 20 year prison sentence. It was discovering facts like that that made me start to feel indignant.

Interviewer

Did the teachers ever discuss the morality of the anti-Catholic laws?

They were pretty silent about them but were aware the students included some Catholics. They could have reported them to the authorities but didn’t.

Interviewer

How was school for you in general?

I loved it. St Peter’s was a grammar school and I was lucky to get into it. I loved the rough and tumble of the games, some of them against school rules but great fun. The lessons were challenging including Greek and Latin and the teachers strict but I was sociable and made many friends.

Interviewer

And a happy school life was a blessing considering the events that occurred at home. There were some heart-breaking tragedies.

More than my share. I had lost a grandmother while still a baby, my father died when I was just eight years old, and then Uncle Thomas, who had provided valuable financial support, died as well, just a few years later. He had assumed the role of a father figure to me and my two sisters so losing him was a double tragedy.

Then your mother remarried?

She married Denis Bainbridge who was a Catholic. This brought me into closer contact with the faith and prompted me to probe further in my engagement with the Wright brothers and also another contemporary at school, Oswald Tesimond who later became a Jesuit priest. The discussions were not so much about the tenets of the faith but over the dismal, barbaric and utterly cruel treatment of people who attempted to profess their Catholic faith openly. Or were caught professing it in private.

Interviewer

Can you give an example of that treatment?

I was witness to the brutal execution of a local woman. The method was known as pressing, sometimes called crushing. It was only done to women. She was laid on sharp stones facing upwards and a metal plate was placed on her lightly-clad body. Heavy weights were dropped onto the plate one after the other. More and more were added until she was crushed to death in excruciating pain. You don’t forget experiences like that. I was fifteen.

Interviewer

Did you find out what she was charged with?

Her name was Margaret Clitherow and her “crime” was hiding Catholic priests in her house so they themselves could avoid execution. For them just celebrating Mass was punishable by death so it was natural for faithful Catholics to want to protect them. I was scarcely able to believe a regime could be so brutal. From then on, for me, the Church of England was the church of the devil. But it was also the church of my country and as a teenager I had no idea what I could do about it.

Interviewer

Despite your quandary you must have been moving closer to Catholicism. You new step-father was Catholic and I believe your mother also converted?

Correct.

Interviewer

Was your step-father’s influence the final factor that brought about your own full conversion?

Yes, I enjoyed the warm mysticism of the faith compared to the blandness of the Church of England. And it was the stories I was hearing from my step-father that finally cast the die. I was staggered to hear the number of times his own father had been sent to prison – just for attending Mass. I mentioned earlier that the Earl Thomas Percy had been executed for his part in the Rising of the North. The execution occurred in York and his head was publicly displayed on a spike in the centre of the city. Several hundred others suffered a similar indignity and I’d gone through childhood seeing these grotesque displays.

Interviewer

So when did you officially convert?

I was baptised in 1587, after leaving school aged 17. It was an exciting time. When mum remarried we moved from York to Scotton, into a house owned by another branch of the Percy family. I discovered that a tunnel existed underground from the house to Scotton Hall, a huge residence well known as a refuge for priests. I attended my first Mass there. But things were worsening for Catholics after an attempted landing in England by the Spanish Armada in 1588. Queen Elizabeth became decidedly paranoid. But despite everything I was seeing and learning my conversion had still been quite a difficult decision. By remaining in the Church of England I could have attended Oxford and followed my father and grandfather into ecclesiastical law with a good income and a secure future. But, ultimately, I had a conscience.

Interviewer

I know you ended up in the military. Was that straight from school?

The excitement and adventure of a military career had been an attraction ever since my early teens. And the prospect of fighting for the Catholic cause in either Spain or France thrilled me even more. And it would get me out of England. But I needed money and wouldn’t be coming into my family inheritance until the age of 21. I secured work in the households of the first and second Viscounts Montague respectively in a well-known manor Cowdray House. It was located in Sussex and one of a number in which Catholicism was known to be practised but unmolested as the Viscounts and their families pledged loyalty to the Queen and dutifully attended Church of England services.

Interviewer

Didn’t you first meet Robert Catesby at Cowdray House?

Very briefly. He was one of multiple visitors, all Catholic, that paraded through the house during both of my spells there.

Interviewer

The Gunpowder Plot was Catesby’s idea, is that correct?

Absolutely. He hatched the plot all by himself. The idea must have been slowly building from his university days at Oxford when he refused to complete his degree as that would have required him to sign a pledge to the Queen and her church. He had recently converted back to Catholicism after declaring (or feigning) his faith in Protestantism while at school. He would march in support of the Essex rebellion in 1601 and go to prison for it. It was while in prison that he met my old schoolmate Jack Wright who had also taken part in the rebellion along with his brother. I’m sure Jack and Kit would have had little trouble persuading me to join too but I was in Spain by then.

Interviewer

What was the aim of the Essex rebellion?

The Earl of Essex had been Elizabeth’s poster-boy, or one of them, but he went out of favour over a military failure in Ireland. Essex was furious over his expulsion from court and demanded the sacking of Robert Cecil, the Queen’s senior advisor, and other ministers. He was well supported and there was a huge uprising in the north, demanding the removal of the Queen’s entire body of advisors.

Interviewer

But the rebellion failed, like all the others?

Totally. But it intensified opposition to the Queen although by then her health was failing and all eyes were turning to Scotland and King James.

Interviewer

What was your next move after Cowdray House?

I mentioned I served two terms there and there was an eighteen month gap between them. During that I briefly attended Cambridge and then lived in London for a while. In London one had to keep any hint of Catholicism well hidden. The town was crawling with spies and there were financial incentives for family members to rat on each other. It was ugly. Then by the end of 1591 I was twenty-one and in a position to fulfil my dream. I travelled to Spain and joined a force led by Sir William Stanley, an English Catholic fighting in Flanders against Protestant Spanish Netherlands on behalf of Spain. The conflict had been going on for decades.

Interviewer

William Stanley was an enigmatic figure, I recall. Originally fighting for the Queen, deliberately surrendering a besieged town to the Catholics, changing sides and leading a Catholic army against Protestant Europe.

He was my boss and what a man! What a history. He was fighting for the Queen in Ireland and with such success he was considered for the position of Viceroy of Ireland. When he was passed over he was angry. He rounded up a large band of Irish soldiers and was ready to support a plot (one of many) being planned to remove the Queen - the Babington Plot. He may have helped plan it.

Interviewer

That plot failed of course. And he changed his allegiance back to the Queen?

His Irish regiment moved to the Netherlands and yes, he now fought for the Queen and had some spectacular victories. He was rewarded with the Governorship of a town called Deventer. He defended it with his garrison but they were in a losing position. Deep down he had always had Catholic sympathy and merely on a whim, surrendered the whole town to the Catholic governor of a neighbouring town, leaving his Irish garrison to its new governor and began fighting on the Catholic side.

Interviewer

And now you were fighting with him?

It was his regiment and he was my commanding officer but I didn’t see a lot of him as I was quickly moved to the front. But he was a great inspiration.

Interviewer

A new country, and a new career. And a dangerous career?

Risk-taking had never bothered me. Even at school I was duelling with real swords and no protective clothing or face masks. In Spain I was thrust into the thick of it and was wielding a sword within days of my arrival.

Interviewer

Were swords the principal weaponry?

We had gunpowder so there were muskets and cannon as well. I was a specialist swordsman and also became skilled in gunpowder use, especially in the siege of Calais when I was required to tunnel under the wall and pack gunpowder under the ground, setting it off with a slow burning fuse giving me time to get clear. But most of my fighting was brutal hand to hand stuff and I was seriously wounded more than once.

Interviewer

Were you on the winning side?

No. Eventually, decades after my involvement, Spain yielded the Spanish Netherlands to the Dutch Republic so territory was lost. While I was there we had an impressive victory in the battle of Nieuwpoort but it was a hard life and we were underfed and constantly hungry. Then in 1595 I moved to France where I fought for three years on the Catholic side against the Protestant Hugenots. The soldiers there were better supplied and better treated. By the end of my military service I was poised to become a Captain.

Interviewer

The end of your service? So you weren’t set on the military as a permanent career?

It was exciting, especially knowing I was fighting ultimately for the church and for God. But I was fighting away from home and had a deep desire to join the fight for God in my own country.

Interviewer

Did you not become involved in the secret Catholic lobby for financial help from the Spanish court? And even more audaciously, urge the Spanish King to launch another invasion of England? This sounds pretty high level political stuff. How did you get involved?

I was very privileged to be selected by Sir William Stanley to make the trip to the Spanish court. He had been badgering King Phillip II himself ever since the failed 1588 Armada to make another attempt – to the point that Phillip was heartily sick of him. By the time I arrived Phillip II had died and been replaced by Phillip III who was a much more peace-loving man. He was trying to secure peace agreements with both England and the Spanish Netherlands and by 1603 was most reluctant to threaten those negotiations with military action against England.

Interviewer

Didn’t two of your fellow gunpowder plotters also try to lobby the Spanish King for assistance?

Three, actually. Robert Catesby’s cousin, Thomas Wintour was sent in 1601 by an English Lord he worked for, Baron Monteagle. Monteagle was one of several Lords with strong Catholic sympathies. Wintour was well received and King Phillip of Spain appeared quite shocked to hear of the conditions suffered by his fellow-Catholics in England. He promised the equivalent of twenty-five thousand pounds in aid, specifically to help pay the fines incurred by the Essex rebels. And he undertook to send a second Armada provided an English rebel army was on hand to meet it.

Interviewer

Sounds too good to be true.

It was. Phillip reneged totally. No money was paid and no armada was sent. He must have had second thoughts and didn’t want to threaten his efforts to secure peace.

Interviewer

And you were sent to make another attempt?

Francis Tresham, another cousin of Robert Catesby and the brother of Monteagle’s wife made more than one trip, also sent by Monteagle. His visits were mainly diplomatic and cordial. Later Robert Catesby sent my old school friend Kit Wright to make a more serious effort to persuade the Spanish court to honour their earlier promises to Thomas Wintour.

Interviewer

And you were sent to join him?

Not immediately. Kit did his best but it was now 1603 and James had come to the throne so it was bad timing. England having a new King gave Spain the incentive to intensify their attempts to secure a peace agreement – less likely under Elizabeth with her uncomfortable memory of the Armada. While Kit was negotiating, and it wasn’t just one meeting, the process went on for many days, I was sent by Sir William to join him. As I said before, it was a tremendous honour. He had picked me out of the hundreds of English soldiers fighting in Flanders. Before I left for Spain a few weeks after Kit got there, I wrote a letter condensing all the tragic stories of Catholic persecution that had been brought to me through Stanley and the new troops continuing to arrive from England. When I reached King Phillip’s court I gave him the letter. I was much more forceful than Kit had been and felt that finally the true situation Catholics were facing was getting through.

Interviewer

But you were turned down flat?

They totally refused to invade. And no other form of assistance was offered. Weeks later a formal peace agreement was signed between Spain and England as the Treaty of London, bringing years of warfare to an end.

Interviewer

So you both returned to England with the bad news?

I was due to return to my regiment in Flanders and Kit was to return home. But we were refused passports and couldn’t leave Spain.

Interviewer

You mean you were kept basically as prisoners?

I was a soldier and didn’t have much of a grasp of politics. But our agenda flew in the face of the ongoing peace negotiations. The Jesuit priests in England and Spain and even the Pope himself were all in favour of a peace agreement but our mission was to incite a civil disturbance in England or, even worse, war between Spain and England. Our return to England could threaten the peace negotiations, in their view.

Interviewer

How long were you detained?

More than six months! We finally received passports in March, 1604. By then we were becoming a burden to the court and they were glad to see the back of us. We had been free to move around within a limited area but were closely watched. It was an utterly boring and frustrating time, Kit returned to England and I went back to Flanders to rejoin my regiment.

Interviewer

We’re getting close to the business end of all this. Hadn’t the group planning the gunpowder conspiracy already assembled by March, 1604?

Catesby had secretly shared his plan with Jack Wright and Thomas Wintour by then. They were the first to know of it. My own life also underwent change in March 04 – I left the military, at least in a fighting capacity, and moved more into espionage working alongside William Stanley’s man on the ground, Hugh Owen. I went to Brussels initially but was called to Dunkirk by Stanley to meet a man being sent to Belgium by Robert Catesby.

Interviewer

Who was that?

It turned out to be the man first sent to lobby the Spanish court, Tom Wintour. As I said, Catesby had by now recruited him into his plot (they were cousins, remember), but Wintour was terrified by the sheer scale of it. Catesby placated him by arranging for him to meet with a Castilian Duke and urge him to encourage King James to ease the anti-Catholic laws as a condition of the peace agreement. If that happened there would no longer be a need for the gunpowder plot.

Interviewer

A big ask, after the previous multiple failures?

An impossible ask, but it left Wintour reluctantly accepting that drastic action had become the only option.

Interviewer

So how did you come into it?

Pleading with the Duke wasn’t Wintour’s only task. Catesby had decided that his plot was in part a military operation and someone with experience with gunpowder and with military-type organisational skills was needed to join the conspiracy. He had heard of me and remembered meeting me briefly at Cowdray but it was largely on the recommendation of Stanley and Owen that Wintour was to include locating and recruiting me as part of his mission.

Interviewer

How did he locate you and what did he tell you?

He spent four days with Owen at Ostend before I was sent for. I don’t know what they discussed – surely not the plot itself. That was top-secret. Perhaps Wintour was quizzing him on my abilities and general reliability. When I joined them I was told that things were bad in England and I was needed back there – no more than that.

Interviewer

But they convinced you to return to England.

I didn’t need much convincing. England was my home. I was now a seasoned warrior. If there was to be a fight for Catholic rights in England I wanted to be part of it. I sailed back from Calais to Greenwich with Thomas and we rowed upstream to Robert Catesby’s London house in Lambeth.

Interviewer

So you finally got a briefing on the details of Catesby’s plan?

No, much to my frustration. The briefing was weeks away. It was more of an informal reunion. Robert remembered me from Cowdray. I didn’t even remember meeting him. But he had Jack with him. Jack Wright. We recognised each other instantly despite seventeen years apart. He’d always been on the quiet side and seemed happy to hear of my military exploits rather than talk about himself. Robert sat quietly, probably evaluating me and thinking about how to best make use of me. I eventually quizzed Jack on his life since school. He told me he and Kit had fully converted and instantly became much more radical over anti-Catholic discrimination. More so than those born Catholic which was often the case. Recent converts seem to be more zealous. Like Robert, Jack had hated the anti-Catholic laws back to Elizabeth’s time and hated her team of advisors.

Interviewer

So Jack had no hesitation in marching with the rebels with the Earl of Essex in 1601?

Robert was behind that. Jack wasn’t so much into public protest but, yes, he joined in. And, with Robert, went to prison for it.

Interviewer

Didn’t they both get thrown back into prison a year or two later?

In 1603, yes. Robert Cecil was super paranoid as the Queen lay dying. He and his circle of evil cohorts feared the instability created by the change of monarch and took the precaution of rounding up the known agitators, those who hadn’t already been executed that is, and throwing them into prison. Robert and Jack were among them, Frances Tresham too.

Interviewer

So fast forward to the day you were told the full details of the Catesby plan.

Tom, Jack and I stayed at Robert’s place for several days while Robert mysteriously explained that one more person needed to join us before he could reveal any details. Up till then all I knew was that a major act against the monarchy and the government might – might!! be about to be put into operation. I was intrigued, excited, and most of all, impatient. What was the plan and what was to be my part in it? Even more frustrating was that I found out Jack and Tom had already been fully briefed and had sworn secrecy. Me and the awaited mystery person would bring the initial group of conspirators to five and we would be fully briefed in due course.

Interviewer

Who was the mystery person?

Thomas Percy. He arrived on the third day. He too recognised me and said we’d met at Scotton Hall but I didn’t remember. I knew of him and learned he was distantly related to the current Earl of Northumberland and worked for him as custodian of his northern estates. He was also on the staff of his London household.

Interviewer

So now all five are together. The plan was finally revealed?

Again, no. Robert now told us that he had booked a private room at the Duck and Drake tavern in the Strand on 20 May and we would formally seal the conspiracy on that date at that place.

Interviewer

So yet more waiting?

20^th of May! That was nearly three weeks away.

Interviewer

So more impatience, more build-up of excitement, more nagging curiosity?

All of that. But one thing you learn in the military is patience, and dealing with long spells of inactivity. But in war it’s a very stressful inactivity that could last for weeks and then come to a sudden and violent end without warning. You knew that you could die in the next piece of action. So in a way Robert’s plan and timetable allowed me to relax now that a date had been set. It was a period of more restful excitement and anticipation if that’s not a contradiction. There was still plenty to talk about and we had some pleasant outings. I had a very revealing chat with Tom Percy in which he told me that, while at his most angry over James reneging on his promise to Catholics he had visited Catesby and threatened to “kill the King with my own hands”, I think I told you that earlier. Catesby told him to be patient and that he was planning something bigger. That roused my level of excitement even more.

Interviewer

Come the 20^th of May, what happened?

We assembled in a small room at the tavern but without saying a word Robert took us into a much larger room where Jesuit Father John Gerard had set up an altar and was ready to say Mass. This hadn’t been planned but priests were known to frequent the Duck and Drake and Robert had spotted John on the premises. We prayed fervently, dedicating whatever lay ahead to God and God alone. Father John was never involved – we took every precaution to avoid implicating the Jesuits. For him it was just one more secret Mass for a small group of pious Catholics.

Interviewer

And the long-awaited details of the plan?

It’s legendary now of course – 5 November, 1605 is etched in history for ever. But when Bob outlined his proposal in an almost expressionless voice, as though he’d been practising for weeks, I was absolutely overcome with joy.

Interviewer

Joy? Not apprehension, fear, or....

It was a feeling of indescribable relief – knowing that within a few months my anger, frustration and religious torment would come to an end one way or the other.

Interviewer

Can you explain “one way or the other”?

Either the plan would succeed and England would revert to Catholicism and allow us at long last to worship openly, or it would fail and we would all die. And it would be the most noble and holiest death imaginable – dying in the name of God.

Interviewer

And you had no qualms of conscience, planning to kill so many people. That’s sinful, surely?

It was in God’s name! And to save God’s church from probable destruction, in England at least and possibly beyond. You talk about killing. Look at all the carnage and death caused during the Crusades. And yet they were sanctioned by successive Popes, with Pope Urban calling for the first one in 1096.

Interviewer

I think your justification for such carnage is debatable, at the very least. Just remind me exactly what Catesby proposed?

To kill the King and knock the top off the entire apparatus of government. One single powerful gunpowder explosion would destroy the Lords and Commons along with all their occupants at the opening of parliament. Members would die along with the entire judiciary, the King’s panel of advisors, senior civil servants, the heretical bishops and of course the King himself as well as his Queen and his male heirs. An uprising would be launched from the Midlands to encompass all England and Wales, including London, the child princess Elizabeth would be kidnapped and legally installed on the throne guided by a group of Catholic advisors and regents. In due course she would be married into the Catholic faith. Upper-class Catholics, previously repressed, would emerge from hiding and fill the justice system, the parliament and the civil service. Mission accomplished.

Interviewer

It sounds utterly outrageous in hindsight. Did you seriously think it could succeed?

Yes.

Interviewer

You thought so at the time. But in hindsight?

Yes. And it so nearly did. Just one letter betrayed us and even despite that we came tantalisingly close.

Interviewer

Okay. We’ll come back to that. What was your role in the plan and what was your first task?

A key part of the plan was to tunnel under parliament and find a location for the required amount of gunpowder. Tom Percy, and good fortune, came to the rescue here. He had recently been appointed to the rather misnamed role of Gentleman Pensioner to the Earl of Northumberland (basically part of a circle of security guards for the Earl when in London) and as such he was entitled to a residence close to parliament. He negotiated for the rental of a house right next door. The current tenant put up some resistance, and weeks later the government hi-jacked it to assemble a houseful of diplomats negotiating a unification agreement with Scotland so we had to vacate for several months. Most annoying. Once we were in permanently things started to move, but by then it was December, 1604.

Interviewer

Did you all share the house with Percy?

No, just me. I was “employed” as a manservant to Tom and adopted a false name: John Johnson. I had a big advantage over the other four in that I had been out of the country for ten years. It was safe for me to move around openly, the others moved mostly in darkness for fear of recognition – don’t forget Jack and Bob were well known as agitators. Even though the King’s spies had probably learnt my name as a Catholic Englishman fighting in Spain, none of them would have any idea what I looked like. I was very useful to the team in that regard.

Interviewer

What was your first job once you were settled in Tom Percy’s new house?

Plan the tunnel and collect the required materials – shovels and picks, plus timber to shore up the roof. I was put in charge of that specific operation on account of my experience tunnelling under the walls at Calais. But it soon dawned on me that it would be a huge job – unstable soil, rock and heavy clay. And we would have to burrow a considerable distance to reach a viable spot for the maximum effect of the explosion. It was now December and parliament was scheduled to open in February. I discussed the situation with Bob and he arranged for Kit Wright to join our team as an extra pair of hands to help with the digging. We knew he could be relied on to maintain confidentiality.

Interviewer

Other extra people were also recruited, were they not?

It just kept growing – eventually to the point where I was worried over a possible betrayal. Thomas Wintour’s brother Robert was brought in along with Kit. And unbeknown to me Bob had already divulged the plot to a friend of his called Robert Keyes – another radical Catholic who Bob clearly trusted. His role was to occupy Bob’s London house in his absence, posing as a servant but in reality guarding the gunpowder which was to be stored there.

Interviewer

How was that obtained?

Both Bob and I had contacts and there was plenty around. England had recently signed a truce in their conflict with France although they were technically still at war. The military were therefore sitting on a large surplus. Gunpowder was never a problem and I had gained knowledge overseas regarding safe storage.

Interviewer

So the tunnel was the only task at this point?

For the moment, yes. And a full-time task. Back-breaking and slow. All the dug out material had to be passed back from hand to hand and disposed of in the Thames under cover of darkness. Most of the digging was done at night too.

Interviewer

How long did the job take for the tunnel to reach its destination?

It didn’t need to reach its destination. Every night before work started we would all gather in Tom Percy’s main parlour to pray that God might expedite our labour and maybe even intervene in some way. After some weeks work He did just that.

Interviewer

In what way?

We had a scary moment one night while digging – there was a mysterious noise, sounding like something heavy being moved, right above our heads. We fell silent and listened. It was so close we feared somebody might have detected our presence. If we could hear them, they surely could hear us.

Interviewer

What did you do?

It was early morning and still dark. As I was legitimately Tom Percy’s servant I could move openly around the area adjoining his house and was often seen doing that. Using my lamp I could see an open side door in parliament building so entered and followed the sound we had heard. I found a large room which appeared to be used for storing coal. Several workmen were dragging the sacks to another door and appeared to be clearing the room. They explained that the room was rented by a coal merchant who had recently died and his widow was now selling all the coal. They also told me that the room had originally been a kitchen to service the House of Lords immediately overhead. Immediately overhead!! I excitedly reported this back to Catesby and Wintour and we had Tom Percy negotiate to purchase the rental, ostensibly for also storing coal and firewood for his house. It took a little bit of bargaining but he secured a lease.

Interviewer

That’s very convenient. Almost too convenient maybe? Could it have been a set-up by Cecil’s men? The spy network might have suspected something was afoot.

It crossed our minds but we had to seize the chance. We moved the gunpowder from Percy’s house during the night and hid it below sacks of coal and firewood. We kept the room locked and saw no signs of any attempt to break in and search the room.

Interviewer

So you could now place the gunpowder in a room directly below the House of Lords? And work on the tunnel stopped?

Yes – and our prayers to God bore still more fruit. The date for opening parliament was moved from February to October. From a shortage of time and labour, in an instant we found ourselves with a surplus of both and very little to do in London apart from gather more gunpowder. Bob looked after that but consulted me on the quantity required. I asked for thirty-six barrels. He thought that was rather a lot but went ahead and, over time, obtained that quantity.

Interviewer

It does sound a little excessive.

Of course it was. It would have destroyed an area around a half-mile radius of parliament. Westminster Abbey would be rubble. But I was concerned that some of the powder might deteriorate in underground storage so made allowance accordingly. In the event quite a bit was rendered damp or contaminated and we had to replenish by a small amount.

Interviewer

So with the opening of parliament postponed and no more digging required, what did you all do?

Once all the gunpowder was in place the work in London was done. All that was left was to light the fuse. But Robert was thinking beyond. And thinking big. In the chaos following the explosion he believed every anti-Government person would rally to the cause and support an uprising. But they would need leadership and he now set about establishing a fighting force that would be ready to spring into action. He was quietly recruiting possible fighters and suggested I return to Flanders and seek to recruit men from the English regiment with help from Stanley and Owen. I travelled over there and got a mixed response. But I found willing supporters among the English seminarians studying for the priesthood in Belgium institutions set up by the Jesuits. The trainee priests were attracted by any suggestion of an uprising against the anti-Catholic ruling regime.

Interviewer

So recruiting men for the uprising was the sole purpose of your journey?

While there I also sought professional advice regarding the building of a system of fortifications and Owen offered to source more gunpowder – not for the explosion but for the war. Bob had also pleaded for me to seek finance and to try to recruit Spanish mercenary fighters. The Spanish government wasn’t going to help. I wasn’t very successful in that regard.

Interviewer

I’m wondering about security while you were out of the country. When was the gunpowder finally in place and the cellar secured?

In early April.

Interviewer

And when did you return to England?

September.

Interviewer

Were others in the group checking the cellar from time to time?

I held the only key. We didn’t want any of our men known to the authorities to be seen around parliament, night or day. I was the only one with legitimate business in the vicinity.

Interviewer

So thirty-six barrels of gunpowder were left unguarded under parliament house for the entire summer?

Yes. It was a calculated risk. But it was an anxious moment for me when I inserted the key after my return. I knew there was a possibility the gunpowder had been discovered.

Interviewer

But it hadn’t been?

No.

Interviewer

These recruitment drives, yours and Catesby’s, must surely have come to the attention of Robert Cecil and his espionage team.

I’m sure they did. But we were fairly certain that at least our plan to destroy parliament was undetected. All our activity in London had ceased and our cellar remained undisturbed. Remember that anything Cecil and his senior circle knew about our plans for the uprising wouldn’t be much use to them after the explosion. They’d all be dead.

Interviewer

Fair point. How did the recruitment drive go?

Not all that well. There was some interest but a lot who would willingly join an uprising once started didn’t want to be associated with starting one.

Interviewer

Putting aside you preparation for a full scale war and returning to your central plan, did you not say earlier that part of it included a kidnapping. I presume preparations were being made for that also.

Absolutely, and, regretfully to my mind, to carry out the Midlands campaign more people had to be admitted to our group.

Interviewer

What were their roles and who were they?

I’ve already mentioned Robert Keyes. A short time later Thomas Bates, Robert Catesby’s very loyal servant at his luxurious Northamptonshire home was brought in as he had become suspicious over the number of visits and secret meetings taking place at the secluded gatehouse. We feared he might start expressing his suspicions to outsiders so admitted him to the circle. Like the rest of us, he swore an oath of secrecy. His role was basically to always be by Robert’s side throughout the post-explosion uprising.

Interviewer

There were others were there not? The names of John Grant and Everard Digby became well-known.

Yes, plus Ambrose Rookwood and Francis Tresham. We didn’t just need men – we needed money and supplies. John Grant was a well-known Catholic agitator. He often had priests hiding in his huge Warwickshire homestead and such was his impetuous reputation with the authorities he was usually able to scare them off when they arrived on a routine search. But his value to us was his money, and he also claimed he could access a large supply of war horses from Warwick Castle nearby. He was trustworthy and Robert had no hesitation in recruiting him. Based in the Midlands he was conveniently placed as a base while Robert, Jack and others moved around preparing for the uprising. And he was married to Dorothy Wintour, Thomas and Robert’s sister. Speaking of the Wintours, Robert had married into the enormously wealthy Talbot family whose resources he hoped could be tapped.

Interviewer

There seem to be a lot of family relationships building up here. You mentioned Catesby and Tom Wintour were cousins, so Bob was related by marriage to John Grant?

Correct, and it didn’t end there. I’ll take a deep breath. Tom Percy was married to Martha Wright, Jack and Kit’s sister; Ambrose Rookwood was married to Robert Keyes’ cousin, and Francis Tresham was another of Robert Catesby’s cousins and he had two sisters married to Catholic sympathisers in the House of Lords – Stourton and Monteagle.

Interviewer

Tell me more about Everard Digby – Sir Everard I believe?

Yes, Everard was our most distinguished recruit. Robert wanted someone with status to lead what he called the “hunting party”. It was in fact the group that would carry out the kidnapping of the child princess and move her to the safety of Robert’s homestead where his mother would look after her. And it would be Sir Everard’s party that would gather support for the uprising, riding west through the Midlands, into Wales and eventually move on London.

Interviewer

And you managed to persuade a man of his standing to agree to kidnap a royal family member?

No qualms at all. Everard was ferociously against the Government and seeing it overthrown would be the greatest of pleasures to him. It was late October when he was first approached. I don’t think I mentioned that the opening of Parliament was postponed yet again from October to the fifth of November so when Everard Digby came on board we were only a couple of weeks away from D-Day. Digby was fine with the kidnapping and uprising. In fact leading a group of men to travel the country recruiting anti-Government rebels to form an army to overthrow the Government was a venture that excited him beyond measure. But it was a different story when he heard of the plan to blow parliament to pieces. He had friends there and objected to innocent people being killed.

Interviewer

But Robert was able to somehow reassure him?

Thomas Bates had had the same reservation and would only take the oath of secrecy if the Jesuits had been consulted and been supportive, considering the gunpowder explosion to be the lesser of two evils. He reassured Digby, and Bates, that the Jesuit leader in England Father Henry Garnet had been consulted and had declared that if an evil act was needed to remove a greater evil it was not sinful. But while Garnet had indeed indicated such, he was referring to the wider issue of a just war. No Jesuit ever approved the gunpowder plot.

Interviewer

You mentioned a person named Rookwood. That’s one name I’m not familiar with.

Like Everard, Ambrose Rookwood was brought on board at the last minute. He was a close friend of Robert Catesby and another Essex veteran. He was a breeder of fine horses, had money and was in a position to obtain ammunition. A useful recruit. He didn’t question the morality of the plot and trusted Robert to have thought it through.

Interviewer

And finally, Francis Tresham? Didn’t he write the infamous “Monteagle” letter?

I’ll talk about the letter in a minute. But recruiting Tresham was a mistake. He was Bob’s cousin, another one, and had just come into possession of his father’s estate. His money was the main point in his favour and his credentials were good in that he had travelled to Spain as part of the so-called Spanish Treason and had marched alongside Robert and the Wright brothers in the Essex rebellion.

Interviewer

In what way was it a mistake taking him on?

He hated the idea. And was quick to remind Robert that the MPs Stourton and Monteagle were married to two of his sisters and would die in the explosion unless warned away. Robert reminded him that others in the plot also had connections with MPs – Percy managed the northern estates for the Earl of Northumberland and Robert Keyes’ wife worked for Baron Henry Mourdant.

Interviewer

That didn’t convince him?

Absolutely not. I said the main reason he was recruited was the money he had supposedly inherited from his father. But it turned out all he inherited was debts. Even if he had supported the plot he would have been no real use to us. And he was a constant distraction, begging Bob to call the whole thing off.

Interviewer

And worst of all, he’s suspected to have betrayed the plot?

We believe so. But who knows what else was going on. There were now thirteen of us. We didn’t know what was being said to priests in the privacy of the confessional, or to wives in the privacy of the bedroom. And spies were everywhere, watching us moving around and no doubt speaking to our associates.

Interviewer

But the only known betrayal was that letter?

It was addressed to Baron Monteagle and delivered in the dark of night to Monteagle’s servant Thomas Ward by an anonymous person on 26 October. And it was Ward who read it aloud to Monteagle as he sat having dinner with several guests, despite the fact it was sealed and marked “confidential”. The letter has been preserved in archives and I’ve got some quotes. It recommended that he should “...devise some excuse to shift your attendance at this parliament” because “they shall receive a terrible blow.”

Interviewer

How did your group find out about the letter?

From Thomas Ward, the man who took delivery of it. He worked in Monteagle’s household as did Tom Wintour. Ward had a double connection to our circle. As well as working with Wintour his sister was married to Kit Wright. Tom Wintour learned of the letter and Monteagle’s response while chatting casually to Ward. He was quick to tell Bob Catesby. They both instantly suspected Tresham and confronted him but he vigorously denied any involvement. They then advised the rest of us of the situation. We kept our heads and decided to watch for any clue that the authorities might suspect any of us and to watch for any signs that our secret room had been entered.

Interviewer

Was Tresham the only person suspected to have written the letter?

Pretty much although there were wild theories amongst our own group as well as the wider public as the word of the gunpowder warning had spread widely, many believing it was simply a hoax. There was private talk within our group that Tom Percy was acting a bit shadowy. He was seen to visit Robert Cecil late at night about the time the letter was delivered although that might have been legitimate business. He also visited the Earl of Northumberland on November 4. Could he have been warning him also to stay away?

Interviewer

I’ve heard another fanciful theory that Monteagle could have written the letter to himself.

Not quite as silly as it sounds. I haven’t talked much about Monteagle the man. He was William Parker before being created Lord Monteagle. As Parker he was a fervent Catholic, was involved in both the Essex rebellion and the Spanish Treason and was related to Francis Tresham by marriage. He was well known to several of our group and in wider Catholic circles. Then without warning he was made a Lord and entered parliament, declaring Catholicism “an error”. Some of us suspected he could have been placed there as a spy, picking up information from his catholic circle and passing it to Cecil. He could have been warned privately of the plot by Tresham and chose to write the anonymous letter so he could take it to the King and prevent the explosion without blowing his cover as a spy.

Interviewer

Sounds a bit convoluted. Did you share that suspicion?

If Tresham didn’t write the letter, it’s a possibility. Then again, Percy wasn’t exactly lily-white. He could be brutal in his dealing with Northumberland’s northern estate renters. I didn’t entirely trust him. As I said he may have privately warned Northumberland. He might have had second thoughts over the killing of many other Catholic Lords.

Interviewer

You said you also knew, presumably through Ward, what action Monteagle had taken after hearing the contents of the letter. Do you know who he showed the letter to?

Ward turned out to be quite a useful informer to Tom Wintour. In fact we started wondering if he suspected that Tom Ward knew more about the possibility of “a terrible blow” than he was letting on. At any rate we found out from Ward that Monteagle had mounted his horse that very evening and showed the letter to Robert Cecil, who incidentally had been made Earl of Salisbury in 1601 and was by then Principal Secretary of State. Also there were Earls of Worcester, Northampton, Nottingham, Lord High Admiral and Suffolk, Lord Chamberlain. They too saw the letter.

Interviewer

Did Ward find out what action they decided on?

No. But our job was to watch for any signs that our plan had been detected. I had to be particularly careful and placed objects in the cellar in strategic positions so I would know if anything had been moved. After a couple of very nervous days we all agreed to proceed as planned. There was good news on 4 November when Tom Percy returned from his visit to Northumberland and reported that there had been no talk among the Lords of an explosion warning.

Interviewer

Which indicates that the hoax theory might have been accepted by Cecil and his companions. Do you know if the letter was shown to the King?

Yes it was – again Thomas Ward found that out from Monteagle and told Tom Wintour. But he couldn’t have seen it that day. He was many miles away taking part in a hunt.

Interviewer

So it was still all systems go by the end of October. What were the details of the post-explosion plan?

The slow burning fuse would give me fifteen minutes to get clear of the building, a horse would be on standby to get me to a boat and I would be in Flanders later that day. The Jesuits would protect me and if the expected mayhem reigned in London there’s a good chance a Catholic fighting force could be dispatched to England to support the uprising.

Interviewer

What was the post-explosion plan for your co-conspirators?

Bob, Jack, Keyes and Bates would ride north on November 4 with the other London-based men following after the explosion. Digby and John Grant would meet them all at Dunchurch close to Coombes Abbey where the child princess was residing. The hunting party was to assemble at John’s homestead awaiting the word to set out, armed and on horseback.

Interviewer

Regarding your own role, did you have any last minute tasks or was it now just a matter of waiting nervously for November 5?

Waiting, watching and listening. I first entered the cellar about mid-morning on the fourth and made the occasional foray outside to see if anything unusual was going on. I was pretty free to move around as I’d become a familiar figure in the area - John Johnson, Gentleman Pensioner, servant to Thomas Percy. Unlike the others I was not a known Catholic agitator. The name of Guy Fawkes was known, along with most other English Catholics fighting in Flanders. Any of us who returned to England would be considered a threat, but they didn’t know I was Guy Fawkes.

Interviewer

So what did you while waiting in the cellar?

Nothing. Nothing at all, except walk up and down, sit, lie down. And think. I know Bob Catesby had earlier experienced qualms of conscience and had consulted Father Tesimond in the confessional over the issue of killing people in the name of God. I had pondered that question briefly myself but I had absolutely no doubts. I had been killing people in the Netherlands and in Flanders, all in God’s name, regularly confessing to our Padre, and feeling absolutely clean and free of sin.

Interviewer

And you were now about to kill hundreds of the most important people in the country, including many Catholics. Did the immorality, not to mention the sheer barbarity of that act, not give you even the slightest tinge of guilt, or at the very least, doubt?

None at all. Not in the slightest. I had made my peace with God. He understood me in Flanders. He would understand me now. I was doing it for His Church. He rewarded me overseas by preserving my life while many died around me. Knowing your whole life and all your actions are dedicated to God is a wonderful thing. You feel totally liberated, and totally pure.

Interviewer

Some of the world’s worst atrocities have been committed in the name of God while others judge them to be the work of the devil. Didn’t Jesus tell us to love our enemies?

If our enemies are heretical and turning people away from the true faith they have to be stopped. We’re obliged to take whatever action is required. Heaven knows how many lesser attempts had been made since 1534 to correct the error of Protestantism. We turned to this extreme measure out of desperation.

Interviewer

It’s a celebrated fact of history that God prevented this act of mass murder and that you were discovered around midnight with your match in hand. How did that play out?

It wasn’t quite like that. As I said, the day dragged. I was feeling nervous, excited and bored all at the same time. Robert Keyes was to bring a pocket watch late in the evening but until then I had no way of knowing the time. Then came a terrifying moment. A key was inserted in the door. None of our group held a key and it was a privately rented room so no parliament official would have access either. The disturbance was unexplainable and I was shaking with fear. Three men came in and the man with the key explained that he was John Whinnyard, the owner of Percy’s house and its adjoining buildings including my cellar. He must have retained a spare key. He introduced his companions as two parliamentarians who were searching the building for security reasons with parliament opening the next morning. He was helping them with access to private rooms and named them as Lord Monteagle and the Lord Chamberlain Baron Sexton.

Interviewer

The name Monteagle would have worried you.

Momentarily but they appeared to be treating their intrusion as a routine operation and quite politely asked me to identify myself. I told them I was John Johnson, servant to Thomas Percy. I explained that Percy stored his firewood here and I was attending to it along with other items kept there. I was able to maintain a calm exterior but had a raging fear they would inspect the large stack of firewood and look under it.

Interviewer

But they didn’t?

Miraculously, no. Whynniard reassured the Lords that Percy was indeed his tenant and had a servant named Johnson. They wished me a good evening and left.

Interviewer

Relief, and the wait resumed?

Not immediately. I went out to a place where I knew Tom Percy would be on standby in case I needed help and we discussed the situation. We agreed that, with Monteagle there and seemingly leading the search it was probably not a routine inspection. He’d be remembering the letter and would have had his suspicions. But we had no choice but to continue the plan. Visiting Bob would have been unwise – they surely would be watching his house. I returned to the cellar. It had been broad daylight outside so I figured it was late afternoon. I was able to prepare a light meal as the room was furnished with supplies. Then the wait resumed. 9 am the next morning was a long way away.

Interviewer

Any more disturbances before the fateful final one?

Yes but it was expected. There was a knock on the door and I was relieved to find Bob Keyes standing there with the promised pocket watch. He wished me luck and left. Now at least I knew the time but it crawled round painfully slowly. When it finally ticked over to midnight I could say to myself that the day had arrived. I knelt on the stone floor and prayed to Our Lady for the success of the mission, asking her to seek forgiveness from Jesus for the loss of life being sacrificed for the church. I felt calm and relaxed.

Interviewer

If midnight had ticked by, your arrest must now be imminent. That is recorded as happening shortly after midnight.

I was still on my knees when loud voices echoed down the passage outside. My instinct was to quickly get outside the room containing all the incriminating evidence, and act normally as though I was returning to the house. I was instantly set upon in the most unseemly manner and when I protested strongly against the uncouth treatment they wrestled me to the ground and held me there. Two of them entered the cellar and I could hear the firewood being tossed aside. Wild shrieks of horror or amazement, or perhaps triumph, echoed through the cellar. An explanation was demanded and, retaining my composure, I told them that, yes, I was going to ignite the gunpowder when the royal party assembled in the room above and destroy the King and his heretical regime that had been tormenting Catholics for more than sixty years. I added that they were lucky I was apprehended outside the room. Had I been inside I would have instantly ignited the gunpowder and blown them all to smithereens. But I was utterly shattered. Our carefully laid plan had failed. I had let the team and the Church down.

Interviewer

Did you ever find out what prompted the second search?

It was led by an MP named Thomas Knyvett who was also a magistrate and as such had powers of arrest. He was accompanied by a group of armed parliamentary guards. Monteagle would have been very uneasy when the name of Percy was mentioned on their first visit. He was well known as a particularly angry Catholic agitator, as all of us in the group discovered. Although Whynnyard had been satisfied with my earlier explanation clearly Monteagle was not. He must have alerted Cecil who in turn advised the King to conduct a more thorough search. The guards who apprehended me claimed they were acting in the name of the King.

Interviewer

What happened next?

I was held under guard for several hours and then told the King wished to interrogate me personally.

Interviewer

Highly unusual at this early stage, surely?

Very unusual. I suppose I should have taken it as a compliment but it was hardly the time to look for a bright side. Later I drew solace from the fact that it was God’s will that the plot should fail and that I would die in his service.

Interviewer

How did the grilling by the King pan out?

I was led to his bedchamber at 4 am to find several senior advisors also in the room. I suffered the humiliation of being stripped so they could check for hidden weapons. All they found were crucifixes, rosaries and my hair shirt. I was taller than the King and looked down straight into his eyes. That made him uncomfortable – he was presumably used to all those inferior to him, meaning everybody, lowering their heads in a gesture of subservience. He made me state my name and declare my exact intentions. I told him bluntly that I intended to kill him and his entire regime and was sorry that I had failed.

Interviewer

His reaction?

He was silent – stunned I guess. It was a known fact that he had a fear of gunpowder that could only be described as pathological. He had grown up knowing that his father, Lord Darnley – the estranged partner of his mother Mary Queen of Scots - had died in a suspicious gunpowder explosion when Charles was still in his infancy. One can only guess how he would have reacted when first told about the Monteagle letter with its reference to a “mighty blow”.

Interviewer

What did he say when he gathered himself together?

When I asserted that my action was a service to God he shakily declared that, as Defender of the Faith, he himself was God’s representative. Not so, I reminded him. The Pope is God’s only representative on earth and he had excommunicated him as a heretic.

Interviewer

Sounds like the interview wasn’t going to go very far.

Salisbury and the others started pumping me for more details of the plot, especially names of anyone colluding with me. They were muttering in urgent tones to each other and were clearly fearful that any co-conspirators might be poised to commit some other atrocity at that very moment. They rained blows on me when I remained silent. The interrogation drifted to an inconclusive end and I was taken to the Tower.

Interviewer

How soon did your fellow-conspirators learn of the gunpowder failure?

Kit Wright was the first to guess something had gone very wrong. He couldn’t sleep and was walking the streets at 5 am when a passer-by told him a horrible explosion in parliament had been averted. The word spread from him. I learned this long after we had all been arrested – those of us still alive, that is.

Interviewer

We’ll come to the indignities you were subjected to in a moment but are you able to briefly summarise what happened to your comrades? Was the plan for an uprising abandoned, or pursued despite the gunpowder failure?

It was pursued. Bob Catesby was a man with a mission. Nothing short of death was going to stop him. The Wrights were never going to abandon him either. In fact the only one to opt out on hearing the news was Robert Keyes. Grant and Digby, waiting up at Dunchurch, also stuck with their comrades. But Bob was disappointed with the hunting party. Sir Everard had mustered about eighty men. Bob expected several hundred.

Interviewer

But the attempt to stir a widespread uprising went ahead? And what about the kidnapping?

That failed totally. The princess was never located. Morale dropped rapidly now that two key elements of the plot had failed. One by one and in small groups men were abandoning ship. Bob and Jack re-assessed things and they decided to push on to Warwick Castle where they could replenish supplies. They would then head west towards Wales in a passionate drive for more recruits.

Interviewer

It’s well-known that your men were eventually tracked down by the authorities. How long were they on the run?

They were cornered on 8 November. Salisbury had mobilised a large force early on the morning of the 5^th, searching exclusively for Tom Percy. His was the only name known to them. They knew I was his servant so they were anxious to question him over any association he may have had with my action. They were never going to find him in London but in due course there were reports of a large group of men moving suspiciously in the Midlands, and reports of items, especially horses, being stolen. They moved their operation north and following local tip-offs they located what was left of the group at Holbeche House near Dudley and a short distance west of Birmingham.

Interviewer

What was left of the group? So the defections continued? And no new recruits?

Not a single one - apart from Humphrey Littleton, a person known to John Grant, and his nephew Stephen, whose house the group was resting at when apprehended. The Littletons knew nothing of the gunpowder plot or the kidnapping plan but were happy to join any attempt to overthrow the King and restore Catholicism. Including them, the party totalled about 25. But when things were close to rock-bottom an incident occurred that could have killed all twenty-five. The gunpowder had become damp after a thirty mile trudge through rain to reach Holbeche House and it was left in front of a roaring fire to dry. A spark flew out and ignited it.

Interviewer

I believe word got around that there were fatalities. But some survived?

They all did. Robert was only slightly burned as was Ambrose Rookwood and one member of the hunting party. John Grant was seriously hurt and permanently blinded by the flash. All the others were uninjured. But there was a mass exodus. All the hunting party except the injured man left. Everard Digby, Thomas Bates, Robert Wintour and JohnWintour (a late recruit) also left – they knew it was all over and that Salisbury’s men were hot on their trail. Robert Catesby himself now knew the game was up.

Interviewer

So how many were left now and who were they?

They were down to just eight – Robert and the Wright brothers, Tom Wintour, Tom Percy, John Grant, Ambrose Rookwood and the last remaining huntsman, a man named Morgan. Considering their situation, their morale was surprisingly high. They were going to die, perhaps that day in a final shoot-out, or later by execution. They would die in the name of God. They were relaxed and easy of conscience. They were tired but would not lie down without a fight. One thing they did have was a huge supply of ammunition.

Interviewer

And the last stand took place the following morning, November 8^th?

At about eleven o’clock and was all over in ten minutes. Bob Catesby and Tom Percy were shot and killed instantly, the Wrights were shot and left to die, Tom Wintour and Ambrose Rookwood were injured and arrested along with Morgan and John Grant who was groping blindly inside the house trying to hide.

Interviewer

What about the ones who had decamped?

They never identified or apprehended the remaining hunting party members but all of our people were tracked down, including the first to go, Robert Keyes. Robert Wintour and Stephen Littleton held out the longest, about ten weeks – most of the time harboured by Stephen’s uncle Humphrey. The rest were found quickly. Everard Digby was the only one to give himself up voluntarily. As a knighted aristocrat he hoped that gesture would allow him an audience with the King but there was no chance of that. He was now just another enemy of the state who plotted the King’s demise.

Interviewer

Did the arrested men join you in the Tower?

Bates and Morgan, as commoners, were incarcerated elsewhere. The rest were brought to the Tower, along with Francis Tresham who had not left London. There wasn’t much questioning – they were committed immediately to trial.

Interviewer

Do you fancy talking about your own interrogation?

(Long sigh) After a night without a wink of sleep my interrogation started mid-morning on the fifth. The ceremonial opening of parliament had been postponed, not all that surprisingly. The questioning was led by Chief Justice John Popham and Attorney-General Edward Coke, closely watched by William Waad who would be brought in if more enhanced interrogation techniques were called for.

Interviewer

You mean torture?

Yes. They quoted the exact instructions the King had given them: “If he will not otherwise confess, the gentler tortures are to be used first unto him, and then by steps, proceeding to the worst.” I’m not sure what happened to the “gentler” methods. From the start I was brutally beaten by Waad’s men when I doggedly maintained my silence. They wanted to know where Percy was, who else was involved, and full details of the remainder of the plan.

Interviewer

You would not have known Percy’s whereabouts. Regarding the other information they sought, did you steadfastly remain silent?

I answered their questions and stuck resolutely to my story. I had acted alone and made no plans beyond planting and igniting the gunpowder.

Interviewer

But they didn’t believe you?

Of course not.

Interviewer

Was that the only information they sought from you?

They quizzed me on my background and I had no hesitation in summarising my military career which I was proud of. I was also quite open about liaising with William Stanley and Hugh Owen, They would have already known that through their own spies so it was a chance to imply that I was not given to lying or hiding things. I said absolutely nothing that could associate them with the gunpowder plot. But it was still the names of my co-conspirators that they wanted. I resolved at an early stage to hold out as long as possible. If I could just manage two or three days it would give them time to leave the country.

Interviewer

But you’ve already told me they did no such thing.

Against my own assumption they didn’t give up on the uprising. They still hoped it could be triggered and that Spain might invade and support it. It didn’t happen. Was probably never going happen. So my three days of suffering for their sake was all in vain.

Interviewer

Just briefly, what else happened in those three days?

They were constantly bellowing: “Names! Names! That’s all we want”, raining heavy blows on my body as I stood there in silence. Then I was put in manacles and lifted off my feet. I was suspended for hours with all my weight pressing on my wrists. By now they were just murmuring to me things like “All this will end if you just give us some names.” They continued to beat me savagely.

Interviewer

Were you close to giving in at that stage?

I remembered Jesus carrying his cross, being whipped, being crowned with thorns – doing it for me. I shared his pain and through the pain I felt blessed. I felt close to him. At one point my body shut down to the pain totally and I had a strange feeling of exhilaration. It was like I was outside my body. I thought perhaps I had died. Then the pain hit me again.

Interviewer

And it didn’t end with the manacles did it?

Initially I was suspended by the wrists and then it changed to the thumbs, ripping tendons and causing more pain, pain beyond belief. I was finally taken down and confined in what they called the “Little Easy” – a four foot high narrow wooden box. I couldn’t lie or stand. It was ferociously hot and I could hardly breathe. I was inside that for most of the second day.

Interviewer

There has been some controversy over whether or not you were put on the rack, or whether you were merely shown it.

I was shown it at the end of the second day. They demonstrated the mechanics of it and promised if I didn’t talk I would be put on it the next day. And indeed I was, after having been given one last chance to give some names.

Interviewer

Was the rack even legal in those years?

Torture itself was illegal in terms of the Magna Carta but that meant nothing to these brutes. And they were following the King’s orders – move from the gentlest to the worst. If a prisoner should die under torture it was a capital offence but that too was rarely enforced. In fact one Jesuit, Nicholas Owen, who had nothing whatsoever to do with the plot nor had any knowledge of it, was tortured for information he didn’t have and would die on the rack some weeks later.

Interviewer

Can you briefly describe you own experience of the rack?

It was confined to about half an hour. As the handles were turned and my legs and arms were pulled in opposite directions I felt every joint stretch and dislocate. The tendons were tearing at the same time. Beyond that I have no memory. Maybe I passed out. No man should be subjected to such treatment.

Interviewer

It was doubtlessly cruel and inhumane but you will surely admit that you deserved to be punished. You were about kill hundreds and leave many more maimed and in severe pain for the rest of their lives.

You talk about punishment. Yes, I deserved punishment. My punishment was execution. Torture is not a punishment – it’s an interrogation device designed purely to extract information or confessions. And as such it’s unreliable. People make false statements or worse, false confessions under torture simply to put an end to their suffering. So if it doesn’t produce accurate information what purpose does it serve, except to give sadistic pleasure to its perpetrators? And as I said before, it’s illegal.

Interviewer

Legal or not, in your case it worked. Some key information, accurate information, was extracted.

There was nothing to be gained by holding out. I had allowed enough time for our men to escape and began naming names only on the third day. Little did I know they were all still in England and being tracked down.

Interviewer

Did you name the entire group, or withhold some names out of loyalty?

I attempted to name the whole original group of thirteen but not all of them came to mind. My three days of torture endured to enable them to escape was my act of loyalty. By then I was in a dreadful state, could barely walk and when they put what I had said in writing and asked me to sign, I couldn’t. It was hours later when I finally managed to scrape out my name. I signed as Guido Fawkes, continuing to preserve my real identity. At quite an early stage I had admitted John Johnson was not my real name.

Interviewer

By the next day you had some company in the Tower. Could you engage with any of the others now that they’d been apprehended?

On a few brief occasions, yes, and they gave me an overview of what had transpired since they left London. They too were being interrogated but had no reason to withhold anything. Their interrogators were concerned exclusively with obtaining more names and they were remorselessly pursuing the Jesuits. They were convinced, Coke in particular but Cecil as well, that the whole plot was conceived by the Jesuits, and probably led by Henry Garnet.

Omterviewer

Were your co-conspirators also tortured, for the names of Jesuits or any others involved?

There was threat of torture and both Tresham and Bates were coerced into saying that Garnet and Tesimond had been told of the plot in confession. It was untrue and they both later retracted their statements. They had presumably been trying, unsuccessfully, to mitigate their sentences. No priest had ever endorsed the plot but quite a number were indicted nonetheless. It was a real witch hunt and not confined to England.

Interviewer

Were you subjected to any further torture after divulging the names?

The worst was over but I was cruelly mistreated for the next three months, until my trial date in January. I was deprived of food, and left without medical treatment for my damaged joints and other wounds. But they still pressed me for more names. I had nothing more to give. Only trial and execution lay ahead.

Interviewer

I assume the trial was a rather brief formality.

It wasn’t all that brief. Seven of us were tried together and Sir Everard separately on account of his rank. Cecil kept thundering on about us being low-life puppets in a treasonous and murderous conspiracy conceived by the Jesuits and that the main trials were yet to come. We were given a chance to speak. None of us expressed remorse and in his separate trial Digby delivered an eloquent summary of the wretched conditions for Catholics in England. But minds were already made up. Edward Phelips, future Master of the Rolls had opened proceedings by describing the plot as “of such horror and monstrous nature that before now, the tongue of man never delivered, nor the malice of hellish or earthly devil ever practised.”

Interviewer

Verdict and sentence?

All guilty of treason, all to be executed. All to be hung, drawn, quartered with heart removed and displayed, and head severed and mounted on a spike in a public place for all to scorn. Prior to execution we would be dragged through the streets on wooden pallets with jeering crowds on all sides.

Interviewer

There were some outside your circle also executed, were there not?

Yes. As I said, they were hungry for the Jesuits and pursued them relentlessly. John Gerard was able to escape to France. Oswald Tesimond, my old schoolmate, was captured but also escaped and fled the country. Father Oldcorne, another schoolmate, was found hiding and they managed to associate him somehow with the plot. He was executed and Nicholas Owen, as I mentioned, died on the rack under torture. The Jesuits were dealt with ferociously as Coke and Cecil were determined to implicate more and more of them by torturing those they held. But the priests gave away nothing. There was nothing to give away.

Interviewer

What about Henry Garnet? Was he apprehended?

Eventually, and through a tip-off by, amazingly, Humphrey Littleton – one of our own. He too might have been trying to mitigate his own punishment. He revealed the whereabouts of Henry and three others. Garnet’s trial was lengthy and he defended himself with considerable artistry but to no avail of course. Like the other Jesuits, he had been tortured mercilessly in an attempt to get access to more of his fellow priests – also to no avail.

Interviewer

The actual executions. Did they all take place at the same time at the same place?

There were various venues. The first was at St Paul’s churchyard on 30 January when Everard Digby, Robert Wintour, John Grant and Thomas Bates were executed, in that order. They were made to place their heads in the noose and jump when told. They were quickly cut down and while still alive, castrated and disembowelled. Finally they were beheaded and their hearts cut out and held aloft while the hangman shouted “Behold the heart of a traitor”. Their bodies were dismembered into quarters and their heads later displayed publicly on spikes.

Interviewer

When was your turn?

The next day, 31 January, in the old palace yard at Westminster. I was last, after Thomas Wintour, Ambrose Rookwood and Robert Keyes. I was in such a poor physical state I needed help to climb the ladder onto the scaffold. But I jumped quickly, before the order – my final act of defiance. It meant my neck fell heavily into the rope rather than gently to prevent instant death, as was intended. My neck broke and I lost consciousness. In fact, I had died before being cut down. I was not alive to experience the indignities that followed.

Interviewer

Those two days account for eight of your original circle of thirteen. Four died in the shootout, Catesby, Percy and the Wright brothers. That makes only twelve. Remind me who was the thirteenth and what became of him?

It was Tresham. He had died in the Tower on 23 December and not under torture. In fact, unlike the rest of us he was never tortured. There are rumours that he had been spying for Cecil and his death was faked. He was never seen again but he could have been spirited overseas. He had been given a passport, very odd in the circumstances. But who knows! His health was bad and I think he was too staunch a Catholic to spy for what he saw as a corrupt and heretical regime. I believe he died in December as officially recorded.

Interviewer

This brings us close to the end of the story. You must surely have some regrets.

There were still more executions: the Littletons and John Wintour and any Jesuits who hadn’t escaped, including Henry Garnet. Even innocent farmers and property owners were sentenced to death merely, according to official records “for allowing the King's traitors to take refuge on their property”

Interviewer

So the authorities were stopping at nothing.

They were interrogating women, overseas diplomats, menial household workers. Catesby’s cousin and a strong supporter of priests Anne Vaux was interrogated for days and her utterly innocent servant James Johnson was tortured for information to the point where he was left with a permanent disability. And they interrogated Stourton, Montague, Mourdant and even Monteagle – all at great length. All Lords of the Realm.

Interviewer

Why such an interest in the Lords? They weren’t involved in the plot. They would have been victims of it.

On the contrary, Cecil and his men, and the King too for that matter, were super-interested in any of the Lords with Catholic connections. Stourton, Mourdant and Montague were all suspiciously absent from parliament when it eventually opened. They took that as proof that they must have had knowledge of the plot or at least been pre-warned. Failing to report it was seen as treason. Remember Stourton was married to Tresham’s sister and Mourdant employed Robert Keyes’ wife as a Governess. Both Lords were imprisoned and Mourdant died in the Tower. They also suspected Monteagle, married to another of Tresham’s sisters, was involved beyond the infamous letter and he too was jailed. But the most severe treatment was reserved for Northumberland despite there being no grounds to suspect his involvement. He was in the Tower for fifteen years. They even imprisoned two of his brothers.

Interviewer

Any theories why they would single Northumberland out?

They must have figured that if our plan was to install a new administration it would have to have a leader of some standing, almost certainly from the Lords – and a Catholic. They knew we were going to put a child princess on the throne but had we picked the people behind her who would wield the power, especially the principal one? In fact, we hadn’t – that would have come later. But they must have scratched their heads and decided we had picked someone and that person was Northumberland.

Interviewer

Percy had been meeting with him, right up to 4 November. Perhaps they were right and Northumberland was in fact being wised up for some future role. There was a family connection.

Who knows. I had no knowledge of it.

Interviewer

Well, it’s been an enthralling, although tragic, story. I feel I must ask again, do you have any regrets?

None.

Interviewer

It’s been said that your failed plot only intensified nationwide anti-Catholic sentiment, and brought about even more draconian anti-Catholic laws. Your action almost certainly prolonged the discrimination your fellow Catholics faced. They didn’t get the vote until 1829 and even now they can’t occupy the throne. Do you not feel a tinge of responsibility for that continued discrimination?

We were trying to stop it. It was an honest and sincere endeavour. And it was God’s church we were trying to protect.

Interviewer

I’m left with a grudging admiration for your passion, and your bravery. But nothing will ever convince me that you were doing God’s work. To me, it was the work of the devil.

Are you a Catholic?

Interviewer

No.

Then you will never understand.

Interviewer

We’ll leave it there.

(Tearfully) God bless you.

By John Kiley

returnto conversations menu

.return to homepage