Conversation with Joan of Arc
Interviewer
I’m honoured to speak with you but I’m not sure how to address you. St Joan,
Miss Arc or just Joan.
JOA
Just Joan is fine.
Interviewer
Your fame is legendary and you are credited with some miraculous military
achievements. I’m familiar with parts of your story, especially your mission to
see the rightful French King crowned against the wishes of the occupying English
forces. But I need to ask how it all started. I believe it was your own decision
to seek an audience with the future King and obtain permission to lead an army
on his behalf to rid France of English occupation once and for all.
JOA
It wasn’t my decision. It was God’s.
Interviewer
Can you explain that?
JOA
I’d been hearing voices since the age of thirteen. Even then I had no doubt they
came from God.
Interviewer
What were the voices saying?
JOA
Sometimes everyday things like what I must do that day, sometimes reminding me
to be less selfish, other times reprimanding me for neglecting my relationship
with God and religious duties in general.
Interviewer
These communications became more intense and dramatic as you grew older?
JOA
Absolutely. I received a series of messages that changed my life. They were
accompanied by bright lights and visions of angels and saints.
Interviewer
Before we talk about those visions I’d just like to clarify your family
background. Were you an only child?
JOA
I had one sister and three brothers, and two very pious parents. Our whole
family was totally dedicated to God.
Interviewer
Did you share your experiences with your family?
JOA
Yes, and my parents decided I was greatly blessed. My siblings didn’t think it
was any big deal. I’m not absolutely sure they even believed me at that point
but they had no doubts later. They even accompanied me on some of the campaigns.
But neither they nor anybody else really understood what I was experiencing. It
was impossible to fully describe.
Interviewer
Did you report your experiences to your local priest, like say, in the
confessional?
JOA
No. I don’t think they would have known how to handle it.
Interviewer
Okay, that was just a digression. Are you able to describe the vision of the
saints?
JOA
Vividly. The bright light came first – filling the room with brilliance. Then
apparitions would emerge, recognisable as angels. They would urge me to dedicate
my whole self and whole life to God and the Virgin Mary. They would be a
comforting presence and then fade away with the light. I was left in a state of
rapture.
Interviewer
You mentioned that you could identify actual saints in some of your visions.
Tell me about that.
JOA
The light got brighter and their appearance became clearer. They also started
identifying themselves. The first to do so was St Michael but I recognised him
anyway.
Interviewer
What was his message?
JOA
He didn’t reveal it immediately but told me I was greatly blessed and would be
entrusted by God with a herculean task. He promised he would return accompanied
by two other entities.
Interviewer
This is sounding very freaky. Were you scared?
JOA
I wasn’t the least bit scared. I knew I was safe. My trust in God told me so.
Interviewer
Did St Michael come back as promised.
JOA
After some time, yes. He had St Catherine and St Margaret with him. His message
from God was that I would lead an army and drive the English out of France,
enabling the rightful King to be anointed and crowned.
Interviewer
The message was that stark, and that specific?
JOA
Yes, and that momentous! I was promised further guidance but the visitation left
me totally breathless.
Interviewer
Did you share this particular prophecy with your family or the Church?
JOA
No I didn’t. I received regular visitations telling me my day was coming and to
continue to pray and devote all my actions to God.
Interviewer
How did your life proceed after such sublime experiences?
JOA
As normal. I just dedicated my days to tasks on the family farm and maintained
my routine of prayer and loving devotion to God. But it would be another year
before the specific details of my forthcoming mission were revealed. As time
passed I was beginning to feel apprehensive despite my total trust in God.
Interviewer
What details were revealed and what was the first action required of you?
JOA
A civil war was raging in France at the time between the Armagnacs who supported
the right of the Dauphin Charles to the French throne, and the Burgundians who
questioned that right and were supported by the English.
Interviewer
What was the connection between the visitations you were receiving and the civil
war?
JOA
The clear message was that the Dauphin Charles needed assistance. St Michael
instructed me to seek an audience with him and offer to lead a military campaign
against the English and their Burgundian allies.
Interviewer
Before discussing your response to such a seemingly impossible mission for a
teenage girl, can you please clarify the term “Dauphin”?
JOA
It literally means the son of the reigning King, heir to the throne. In normal
circumstances the Dauphin Charles would have become King Charles VII on the
death of his father Charles VI in 1422. But this was now 1428 and these were not
normal circumstances. The throne was disputed and while it remained in dispute
he continued to be referred to as the Dauphin. Without getting too bogged down
in history, we need to go back to 1392 when the Dauphin’s father and reigning
monarch Charles VI developed mental illness. From that moment Philip, Duke of
Burgundy, declared himself Regent and took control, effectively becoming the
acting Monarch. This did not impress Louis, Duke of Orleans and the brother of
the King. He demanded the Regency for himself and the quarrel split the ruling
House of Valois and indeed France itself. The rift deepened and continued beyond
the death of both Philip and Louis. And it was the brutal murder of Louis by the
Burgundians in 1407 that triggered the civil war.
Interviewer
You were not even born in 1407. What was the state of the war when your voices
urged you to become involved in it?
JOA
I was called to assist in 1428. But a major development had occurred in 1420
when Charles VI was forced to sign a treaty effectively disinheriting his own
son.
Interviewer
Was this the Treaty of Troyes?
JOA
Yes. Some background to it – Henry V was ruling in England and had triumphed
against the French at the infamous Battle of Agincourt in 1415. He had marched
into Paris in 1419 and this left the whole of France jittery – might he invade
France from one end to the other? The two French warring factions saw a need to
reconcile and unite against this threat. But due to a possible misunderstanding
John the Fearless, the new Duke of Burgundy, had been brutally murdered at one
of the reconciliation meetings. This not just reignited the civil hostilities
but drove the Burgundians to join forces with the English against the hapless
Armagnacs. The Treaty cemented the Burgundian/English alliance and left Dauphin
Charles more vulnerable than ever. This was the situation when I was called to
go to his assistance in 1428.
Interviewer
Can you explain what was actually agreed under the Treaty of Troyes and who were
the parties to it?
JOA
Henry signed for England and Philip of Burgundy signed for France as
self-proclaimed Regent for Charles VI. Charles himself despite his mental state
was vaguely in favour of it as a means of ending France’s wider Hundred Years
War with England, as was his Queen Isabeau who also endorsed the treaty.
Interviewer
And what were the terms of the agreement?
JOA
Henry V would enter the French House of Valois by marrying Charles VI’s daughter
Catherine and on the death of Charles would become King of France as well as
England. All descendants of the marriage would succeed to both thrones. My task
would be to rescue the throne for the Dauphin. But at the time of the Treaty he
was not the flavour of the month. He had attempted to claim Regency for his
deranged father and this was seen as an offence against the monarchy, even
treason, and in any event the Treaty appointed Henry V to that position. The
Treaty was blisteringly critical of Charles, pinning the blame for John the
Fearless’s death on his direct order. There was a forceful post-script to the
document which I’ll quote: “In
consideration of the great and shocking crimes and misdeeds committed against
the Kingdom of France by Charles, who is called Dauphini, it is agreed that
ourselves, our son King Henry and also our very dear son Philip, Duke of
Burgundy, will never negotiate in any way for peace or any sort of agreement,
with the said Charles”.
Interviewer
How did the French population in general view such a Treaty? Did they support it
in any way?
JOA
Obviously not the Armagnacs and any others supporting Charles and his right to
the throne. The conflict between the Armagnacs and the Burgundians was not a
battle for the throne. It began as a family squabble and escalated into a battle
for control of the Government. But the majority of the general population were
hostile to the Treaty, even those living in Burgundian territory. After all, who
would want an English King on the French throne?
Interviewer
The Treaty was signed in 1420 but then came two significant deaths in 1422?
JOA
Henry V in August and Charles VI in October. The Treaty kicked in on Charles’
death but by then there was no Henry V to take the French throne. So much for
his carefully laid plans and lofty ambition. His son by Charles’ daughter was a
mere nine months old but in terms of the Treaty was now Henry VI of England and
Henry II of France.
Interviewer
But contradicting that, and the Treaty itself, the French Laws of Succession
determined that the Dauphin, as son of a legitimate monarch, was now King
Charles VII of France. Two Kings!
JOA
French history records the period from 1422 as a disputed monarchy. It would be
90% resolved if only we could get the Dauphin Charles crowned. Hence the urgency
of my mission.
Interviewer
And it’s your mission we need to return to. How does all this relate to the
messages you were receiving from on high?
JOA
By early 1428 the messages were crystal clear and very specific. I was to obtain
an audience with our rightful King, lead an army on his behalf to relieve the
city of Orleans which was under siege, clear the way to Paris, escort Charles to
Reims for his coronation, and drive the English army out of France.
Interviewer
How old were you?
JOA
Fifteen.
Interviewer
And you heard these as firm instructions from God and therefore had to be
obeyed?
JOA
They were more than instructions. They were divine prophecies. Michael’s words
included such things as “Your army will
prevail and drive the English from Orleans, many will die, you will accompany
the Dauphin to Reims and witness his coronation...” and so on. I had already
been blessed with predictions regarding the progress of the civil war and they
had come to pass.
Interviewer
So where did you start?
JOA
Let’s look first at a few geographical details. Domremy, where I lived, was in
the north of France, deep in English/Burgundian territory. The King’s court was
located mainly in Bourges, south of the Loire river in the area controlled by
the Armagnacs. It was necessarily mobile and itinerant for security reasons and
at this moment the King was residing in Chinon, 523 kilometres south-east of
Domremy. But I couldn’t just jump on a horse, travel that distance and call on
the King unannounced. Not to mention trying to explain why I was there. I needed
to convince some lower authority of the need for my mission and to somehow
explain the phenomenon of the voices and visions.
Interviewer
So again, where did you start?
JOA
I persuaded my uncle to take me to the nearest local authority figure – a man
named Robert de Baudricourt who commanded a garrison at the town of Vaucouleurs,
less than 20 km to the north. I didn’t get far into my story before he laughed
scornfully and sent me away. My voices urged me not to give up so I returned in
January, 1429, following a brutal raid on my home town which forced us to
evacuate. My voices had foretold the raid but again I failed to convince
Baudricourt that I was receiving divine prophecies and guidance. However, I did
gain the support of two influential members of his garrison who had come to
believe I had supernatural powers. Not just because I had predicted the raid but
by now the whole community was abuzz with rumours of this humble farm girl who
was receiving divine messages. There had been a prophecy based on the visions of
an earlier mystic who had been promised that an “armed
virgin would come forth to save France”. And there had been an earlier
prophet who predicted that “a virgin
carrying a banner would put an end to France’s suffering.”
Interviewer
People were now starting to believe that that virgin was you?
JOA
Rumours of all sorts abounded. People were praying desperately, begging God to
keep England from invading and ruling France. The English siege of the strategic
city of Orleans was making the whole country uneasy. It lay on the northern bank
of the Loire and if the English took it the way was open to invade the Dauphin’s
territory to the south.
Interviewer
Did you make any further trips to visit Baudricourt?
JOA
I did indeed and in very changed circumstances. In fact, he invited me back. He
too was hearing the rumours regarding the prophecies of the earlier mystics. He
put me to the test by quizzing me over the conduct of the war. I was able to
tell him that an English victory would occur in the region of Orleans about that
very time. It transpired that the so-called Battle of Herrings had been fought
on that day, 12 February. That startled him. His attitude towards me softened
and after much thought he authorised an escort party of six soldiers to
accompany me to Chinon. But he was totally freaked out by my apparent powers and
also very concerned for my safety traversing enemy territory. I was made to wear
male civilian clothing. He advised Charles of my impending arrival.
Interviewer
So it took three attempts, but you finally obtained permission for an audience
with Charles?
JOA
It was always going to happen. St Catherine foretold it. We set out immediately
and arrived at Chinon on 28 February, 1429. The Dauphin was a good-looking man
but not particularly majestic or regal. And he was young – not quite 26. He’d
been a mere 19 when he rightly inherited the throne on the death of his father.
But he was mischievous – he was not wearing his royal regalia when I arrived but
had dressed the same as all his courtiers. It was a trick to test if I really
had the powers he had been warned about. I was told to pick him out from the
assembled group. Guided by St Michael I walked straight up to him and addressed
him as “Your Majesty”. He denied his
identity at first but when I expressed no doubt he relented and showed me
enormous respect. I was deeply honoured.
Interviewer
You’re talking very casually about these powers you had. Picking out the
unfamiliar Dauphin from the crowd of courtiers, knowing about a battle some
distance away as it actually happened, foreknowing the raid on your village. All
this is nothing short of miraculous.
JOA
That’s exactly what it was. It’s God’s knowledge, and God works miracles.
Interviewer
I’d love to take this further and ask how being blessed with such powers
actually felt but we’ll put that aside because there’s a story to pursue here.
You now had to convince Charles to allow you to lead an army on his behalf,
despite your tender age and total lack of military experience.
JOA
It wasn’t just a big ask for me. It was hard for Charles as well. He was a
deeply religious man and wanted cast-iron corroboration that I was being guided
by God - that my mission was indeed a divine one. I was sent to Poitiers to be
interrogated by a panel of theologians who were convinced of my sincerity but
could not confirm that my voices were indeed a form of divine inspiration.
Nonetheless, they recommended that I should be sent to Orleans with an army and
given the chance to fulfil the prophecy.
Interviewer
Sounds like the green light. Did Charles himself concur?
JOA
He did. He was left in no doubt and goggled with amazement when I revealed to
him a personal detail which only he would have been aware of.
Interviewer
What was it?
JOA
It was highly personal and I promised I would never reveal it. I was grilled
mercilessly over it during my trial but I never relented and maintained the
confidentiality I had promised.
Interviewer
What preparations were made and how many soldiers were with you on the mission?
JOA
I was quickly fitted out in armour, given a horse, issued with a sword and
allowed to design a banner myself. Only a dozen or so set out with me but we
picked up a 200 man contingent at Blois as we approached Orleans and several
hundred more Scottish archers joined us later. The city also had its own
garrison and a local militia gave further support from inside the city.
Interviewer
It’s a well-known historical fact that your forces prevailed at Orleans, the
siege was lifted and the English were pursued as they fled north towards Paris.
But can you fill in a few of the details?
JOA
The battle for Orleans was brutal and by no means all one way. Several
skirmishes were lost and the carnage was horrific.
Interviewer
Did you kill anybody?
JOA
No.
Interviewer
Inflict any wounds?
JOA
No – I didn’t do any fighting. Remember I made no mention of military training
when I was being prepared for the mission. Armour, horse, banner – but no
instructions on how to fight.
Interviewer
You were given a sword.
JOA
That was symbolic. And it was a unique weapon, retrieved from under a church
altar that my voices directed me to and unknown to others.
Interviewer
Did you order the men following you to kill?
JOA
Never. Remember, I was a leader – not a commander. I rode ahead of the army
leading them into most of the battles but the orders were issued by those of the
required military rank. Remember also, some of these men had been fighting since
the outbreak of the civil war twenty-two years earlier. Many had fought at
Agincourt. I was totally out of my league in that regard. My role was
inspirational.
Interviewer
You said you’d been given no military training but I understand you were present
when tactics were being discussed.
JOA
Initially as a mere observer. But don’t forget the voices were still filling my
mind and before long I was making suggestions based on the guidance I was
receiving. And occasionally I was able to predict outcomes which made me a
unique presence in the company of these seasoned warriors. In due course I was
allowed to command smaller units.
Interviewer
Just very briefly, how did the Battle of Orleans play out?
JOA
We were dismantling the siege one stronghold at a time, generally prioritising
the weakest. We had a big advantage in that we were only fighting the English. A
little earlier they would have been supported by a Burgundian contingent of
1,500 but they had deserted after a disagreement over who would occupy Orleans
after their presumed victory. The key battle was at Les Tourelles (The Turrets).
It was located on a bridge across the Loire to the south of the city and if the
English lost control of it, which they did, the rest of the strongholds were
powerless and the siege was effectively over. Supplies could move freely in from
the south which was friendly territory. The English had been desperate to take
Orleans – it would have opened up a route across the Loire straight into the
Bourges district ruled by Charles.
Interviewer
So Les Tourelles was the killer blow but I believe a major turning point was
when you entered the city and stirred a somewhat moribund and disillusioned
local militia into action.
JOA
It was an incredible experience. I was absolutely mobbed. My banner featured
God’s name and there were many staunch Catholics among the militia and
population in general. The story of a young girl destined to save France had
been running rife long before my arrival. It inspired the militia. Fighting from
the inside they were a mighty useful distraction to the English even though they
were not professional soldiers. The local people treated my mystical powers with
awe and reverence. The French and Scottish military were a lot more circumspect
but couldn’t ignore the accuracy of my many predictions.
Interviewer
You said at the outset that the battles were brutal and there was much bloodshed
and carnage. Were you ever injured yourself?
JOA
Yes – several times. The most seriously just below the shoulder when an arrow
penetrated the gusset of my armour. The previous night St Catherine had appeared
in a strong vision and said very clearly “Tomorrow
you will bleed from the chest.”
Interviewer
In all honesty, were you fearful throughout these battles?
JOA
When one throws oneself into the arms of a loving God there is a feeling of
total peace, whatever the circumstances or level of danger. In those moments I
was fearless, brimming with confidence and a huge source of inspiration to the
fighting men. In other moments I was terrified. Arrows flying in all directions,
crossbows with heavy bolts penetrating men right next to me, dead bodies on all
sides. Despite all, the deep feeling of peace underlay the fear and never really
left me. William Blake would later write “Under
every grief and pine, runs a joy of silken twine.”
Interviewer
You moved northwest along the Loire, freeing several towns of English occupation
and then a refreshed English army travelling down from Paris engaged you at the
city of Patay, now supported by their Burgundian allies. Tell me briefly what
happened there.
JOA
Briefly, we scored a stunning victory which enabled us to clear a path all the
way to Reims for the coronation.
Interviewer
Perhaps not quite that briefly.
JOA
The whole incident was brief. Orleans
had been protracted. The siege was laid in October, 1428 and I arrived the
following April. There had been many skirmishes during the intervening six
months including the Battle of Herrings in February. The final battle ended on 8
May. In contrast, Patay started and finished on 18 June and was all over in a
matter of hours. I wasn’t even there. The French advance guard finished the job
before I arrived with the main body. It was a brutal battle nonetheless – over
2,000 killed on the English side with many more including all their commanders
captured. We lost about 200. It was a major humiliation for the English and was
the beginning of the end for them in France – as foretold by my voices.
Interviewer
You could say the beginning of the end of the civil war and the beginning of the
end of the hundred years war. Where was Charles during all this?
JOA
Being protected at various locations in the Bourges district south of the Loire.
He was never going to go anywhere near Orleans. In his entire life he had never
led an army into battle apart from a brief encounter with the English in his
early days as Dauphin. He was a peace-loving man despite his support for the
Armagnacs. He followed our battles and was kept informed of our progress by
regular despatches.
Interviewer
Now with the battles won the next step was arranging the coronation and
persuading Charles to accompany you and your escorting troops on a journey to
Reims. Were there historical reasons why the coronation had to take place there?
It was deep inside Burgundian territory.
JOA
Reims was the seat of France’s leading Archbishop and had hosted nearly all
coronations since 816, using the same crown that was placed on the head of
Charlemagne by the Pope in St Peter’s in Rome in 800. Conducting the coronation
elsewhere would not be recognised as authentic, or even lawful.
Interviewer
Even though the main English threat had been removed the journey to Reims was
not without risk?
JOA
Absolutely it wasn’t. Charles had to be persuaded despite the sublime prize
awaiting him. The army was enthusiastic to start with, buoyed by the victories
at Orleans and Patay. But as time went on they gradually came to the conclusion
that the journey to Reims was a huge mistake.
Interviewer
In what way?
JOA
Reims itself was surrounded by Burgundian territory and remnants of English
resistance. An attack by them on the city during the solemn but joyful ceremony
of the coronation could have resulted in the capture or even the massacre of our
just-crowned monarch. But I had absolutely no doubts. The triumphant ceremony
was foretold. It was my sacred duty to ensure it was seen through to a
conclusion. The political and legal situation, and the status of the war, would
change the moment the Dauphin was crowned. Fighting against a legitimately
crowned King is treasonous. And the French army was enormous by this time –
twelve thousand strong and well-armed. But as we penetrated deeper into enemy
territory nobody else shared my confidence. The military thought my priorities
were all wrong and that we should be winning the civil war first. Crowning Kings
could come later in the safety of a post-war environment.
Interviewer
But you prevailed and had the support of the King himself. My understanding is
that the towns en route were populated largely by citizens sympathetic to
Charles but the countryside around them was Burgundian-held?
JOA
It was a somewhat odd situation. Many of the towns in the area had been occupied
by English troops but on his deathbed Henry V had surrendered them to Burgundy.
And the Burgundians were a softer target. They might have still been the enemy
but at least they were French. I was writing letters to the town councils
appealing to their religious convictions. France’s culture is deeply influenced
by the belief that the anointed King is Christ’s representative and that France
is a chosen nation - a belief that goes back to Charlemagne and beyond him to
Clovis. And a belief that was shared by Armagnacs and Burgundeons alike.
Notwithstanding that, this was still 1429 and the civil war continued to ravage
the country. Our journey began in Gien and Reims was 300 kilometres to the
northwest. We needed to bed down several times en route. Danger was never far
away. Support still remained for the English and we met some resistance but by
and large prevailed without conflict.
Interviewer
Except at Troyes.
JOA
Troyes was the exception, although there had been a spot of bother at Auxerre
too. Troyes was the exact mid-point of the journey and we faced big problems
there. It was the site of the signing of the Treaty of Troyes which disinherited
Charles and technically put Henry VI of England on the throne. We were fighting
for the nullification of the Treaty. The city was a bastion of support for the
English cause.
Interviewer
What happened there?
JOA
They wouldn’t let us in. We were desperate for supplies so had to resort to an
aggressive approach. We set up a siege to weaken their resolve and then staged a
full frontal attack, which I helped to plan. Once inside things softened a bit.
Prior to our arrival I had sent a letter addressing the people as “Dear
and good friends, lords and inhabitants of the town of Troyes” It went on,
and I quote “Joan the Maiden makes known
to you, in the name of the King of Heaven and rightful and sovereign lord in
whose royal service she remains each day, that you should render true obedience
and recognition to the noble king of France, who will be at Reims and Paris
quite soon, regardless of whomever may come against us.”
On reading this the town’s leaders called on the Friar of Troyes, Brother John,
to interview me and confirm my authenticity as a visionary from a religious
point of view. His report was glowingly positive, almost reverent. Our stay in
Troyes was incident-free after that although the army was not allowed in. John
and I became firm friends and he accompanied us to Reims.
Interviewer
Were there any more problems for the latter half of the journey?
JOA
Very few. For some while I had been regularly despatching letters to Philip,
Duke of Burgundy, exhorting him to abandon the English and support Charles. I
received no replies but we sensed the mood was changing
Interviewer
How were you received at Reims?
JOA
We were welcomed enthusiastically. Technically the city had been in the hands of
the English since the signing of the Treaty but there were many zealous patriots
there who supported Charles. The remnants of the English presence were expelled
by far superior numbers as Charles was approaching. Knowledge of my foretelling
of the coronation was widespread. In general, the population felt that Charles
was coming home.
Interviewer
Was there any attempt to sabotage the event by the surrounding Burgundians?
JOA
No, but awareness of such a possibility prompted church officials to keep the
ceremony as brief as possible. Nonetheless it was a stately and moving occasion,
conducted on 17 July, 1429. Even the truncated version left a simple farm girl
like me overcome and almost tearful. The holy oil anointing, the ceremonial
tying of the royal shoes, the oath to defend the church, dubbing with the sword,
the robes, the ring, the sceptre. Then at the main altar the coronation itself,
after which six peers lifted the royal throne high so the cheering throng could
see the newly crowned King. The feeling was that now, at last, France had a true
King – a King anointed by God.
Interviewer
Your proudest moment?
JOA
Everybody’s proudest moment. And a monumental and pivotal moment for Charles
himself. Pre-coronation he was disparaged for his lukewarm support for the
Armagnacs as they fought on his behalf; he was seen as criminally responsible
for ordering the murder of the Duke of Burgundy; and he had been disinherited
from the throne by a treaty signed by his own countrymen and his own mother.
Post-coronation he was regarded as the personification of God on earth.
Interviewer
I’m fascinated by the almost divine status of French Kings. And you referred
earlier to the belief that France is a chosen nation.
JOA
France, the King and God are almost inseparable in the eyes of the deeply
religious French. And historically France had been recognised widely as the very
heart of Christianity – more so than the Holy Roman Empire or even the Papal
States. King of the Franks Charlemagne had been the first Holy Roman Emperor and
he along with his father Pepin had donated most of the land that later formed
the Papal States. The Crusaders were drawn from all corners of Europe and beyond
but were referred to in the Islamic world as The Franks.
Interviewer
The Burgundians were also part of God’s chosen nation and it now had a King.
What was the reaction of Philip to this?
JOA
It’s often forgotten how vital the Burgundians were in early fifteenth century
France. As the hundred years war drew to a close the Burgundians were a deciding
factor. Whichever side they supported would prevail. England had the upper hand
with a firm grip on the Burgundians as allies prior to the coronation. But in
the final analysis the Burgundians
were French. Philip would have felt a touch of patriotic pride to see a French
King crowned. And there was ample reason for him to see the coronation as an
opportunity to bring his own civil war to a close.
Interviewer
But as long as the Treaty remained in force Henry was technically sharing the
throne and the Burgundians were locked into an alliance with the English. Or did
the coronation of Charles trump all that and render the Treaty invalid?
JOA
It remained intact for the moment. But its days were numbered.
Interviewer
What brought it to an end?
JOA
Philip, Duke of Burgundy finally yielding to Charles. There had been one failed
attempt to reconcile the two civil war foes but three years after the coronation
another attempt was made. I wasn’t there to see it of course – I’d been devoured
by flames at the stake by then. But by 1432 Philip had realised that the public
mood among his own people had changed and that nobody in France would ever
recognise the so-called monarchy of Henry II. He renewed peace talks and sought
legal and theological advice regarding his obligations to the English under the
Treaty. It was concluded that a new Treaty pledging co-operation between Philip
and Charles would annul the original agreement. The negotiations were intense.
In the Treaty of Arras, signed in 1435, Charles surrendered territory and
excused Philip from paying homage in return for Philip’s recognition of Charles
as rightful King.
Interviewer
So the Treaty of Arras superseded and annulled Troyes, leaving England high and
dry?
JOA
It did indeed. But that was six years in the future.
Interviewer
How did things pan out in the meantime?
JOA
After the coronation the King was rapturous and, well protected by large
contingents of his army, toured Burgundian territory during a negotiated truce
and found many pockets of enthusiastic support which he revelled in. But the job
was far from over. Paris remained in enemy hands.
Interviewer
How was the status of the so-called King Henry II of France viewed in the light
the new situation?
JOA
The English had been busy implementing their side of Troyes.
They organised not one but two coronations for the child Henry. He was crowned
in Westminster Abbey in December, 1429, five months after Charles, and then
brought to France where many months were spent preparing him for the French
throne. He was “crowned” in Notre Dame in 1431, not quite ten years old.
The Treaty of Arras four years later rendered all this an exercise in futility
after the Burgundians turned their support from England to Charles. This ended
the civil war and left England opposed by both Armagnacs and Burgundians. They
would limp on until 1453 when they were finally defeated and the disputed
monarchy ended.
Interviewer
As did the Hundred Years War. So the coronation was key to ending both the civil
war and the war with England.
JOA
Yes but remember the final end to hostilities lay decades in the future. With
our triumph in Reims behind us we had other things on our minds in 1429.
Interviewer
Paris?
JOA
I wanted to strike while the iron was hot and face the English in Paris while
they were somewhat demoralised. I had the support of the military commander, the
Duke of Alencon, but members of Charles’ court favoured continued negotiations
to extend the Burgundean truce. The negotiations were protracted and slow so we
didn’t wait and made an unauthorised advance on the capital. Town after town
surrendered. The English army faced us outside the city but retreated.
Encouraged, we made our move. We met fierce resistance and suffered multiple
casualties. My leg was pierced by a bolt from a crossbow. Alencon and I together
devised a fresh plan of attack but Charles insisted on a retreat to avoid
further bloodshed. We could have prevailed, I’m certain of it. In due course
everything fell into place anyway. The English would be deprived of their
Burgundian allies and forced to vacate Paris in 1436.
Interviewer
But outside Paris in 1429 you were defeated?
JOA
Paris was seen as a humiliation and my reputation was badly tarnished. But I
successfully led a smaller force against Saint-Pierre-le-Moutier further south.
Not so lucky at La Charité sur Loire –
not only were we defeated there but our artillery had to be abandoned.
Interviewer
Were you still being guided by your voices?
JOA
Much less specifically, but I was constantly reminded that the days of the
English occupation were numbered, as originally prophesised.
Interviewer
Had you gone out of favour within the King’s court by now.
JOA
Almost. But I wasn’t needed during a four month truce that had been finally
agreed between Charles and the Burgundeons. There was no serious fighting
through until Easter 1430.
Interviewer
And in 1430 we had Compiegne, and your capture.
JOA
Everybody remembers Compiegne for that reason but they forget the string of
successes ahead of it when we liberated towns that Henry V had gifted to the
Burgundians on his deathbed in 1422. Compiegne was known to contain many
supporters of Charles but the Burgundians, with English support, had laid siege
to it. So we set about relieving it – Orleans all over again. Except we had no
support from Charles and his personal army. He was busy trying to extend the
truce.
Interviewer
But you did have some success in Compiegne?
JOA
I managed to enter the town and led a successful sortie against the Burgundians
the next day. But the English came to the rescue and after a chase I was
captured and imprisoned by the Burgundians at a location some distance away. I
knew I was needed in Compiegne but injured myself attempting to escape.
Interviewer
Was any action taken to help secure your release?
JOA
Seemingly not. I felt abandoned – by the King, by the Armagnacs, by the church –
especially by the church - and I even felt abandoned by God. The King was a big
disappointment. He was capable of securing my release by paying a ransom but
didn’t even make an offer.
Interviewer
Were your voices consoling you?
JOA
No. I had been told earlier to expect an early death but was given no other
details. Again I say it. I felt abandoned.
Interviewer
You said you were captured by the Burgundians. How and why did you end up in the
hands of the English and, eventually, in the hands of church authorities?
JOA
Initially it was the French ecclesiastical authorities who asked the Burgundean
forces commander, Jean de Luxembourg, to surrender me to them but they were
ignored. I think the Duke of Burgundy was waiting for
a better deal, hoping somebody would offer a
ransom.
Interviewer
And young King Henry, through his advisors, did just that?
JOA
Yes, and it was a tragic turn of events. I was presuming I would be tried under
French law by the Burgundians but I was handed to the English on a plate –
purely for financial gain. The advisors to the child King then drew up a list of
religious charges. I was moved to Rouen, the centre of English authority in
France. It was January, 1431 by then.
Interviewer
Then came the trial and eventual execution. Are you able to discuss those?
JOA
I can’t talk about the execution as I have no memory of it. But some aspects of
the trial were grossly unfair and I have to say it, an insult to God.
Interviewer
And you were totally alone. No supporters even as much as attended?
JOA
And no legal representation or counsel. I couldn’t even present my own defence.
I could only answer their questions.
Interviewer
In summary, what were the charges?
JOA
They were multiple. Originally they totalled seventy but were reduced to twelve.
The prosecution was technically brought by civilian authorities but because it
featured spiritual issues and claims of witchcraft and so on, they delegated the
conduct of the case to the church. So it wasn’t really a trial – it was an
inquisition. There were attempts to trap me into making sacrilegious statements
but the one positive aspect for me was that my voices had returned and were able
to guide me. Sensing my increasing confidence and assertiveness the prosecutors
asked if I believed I was in God’s grace. Church teaching is that nobody but God
can know that so I said that I prayed to be in God’s grace – if I wasn’t, please
bring me to it and if I was, please keep me there. I dodged the trap thanks to
the voices guiding me.
Interviewer
What were the actual charges, the most serious ones anyway?
JOA
I was charged with blasphemy in that I claimed to be judged by God alone with no
understanding of the authority of the church. I was charged with being in
communication with diabolical spirits; with blasphemy again by displaying “Jesu
Maria” on my banner and inciting others to commit atrocities in the name of
God.
Interviewer
Something the crusaders had done centuries earlier while the church remained
silent?
JOA
Exactly. And there were vague charges such as superstition, presumptuous
assertions and vain boastings. And petty ones like leaving my parents without
their permission. I was grilled mercilessly on some aspects of my story,
especially the details of the personal matter involving Charles that I had been
told I must never reveal.
Interviewer
Was your guilt determined by the church or the civilian authorities?
JOA
Only at the last minute were the civilian authorities brought back in. Bishop
Cauchon presided over the final summing up for which he engaged some of the
leading theologians from Paris. They went though the charges one by one,
declaring my sinfulness regarding each of them. I was then invited to admit my
guilt or face the ultimate punishment. I was shown instruments of torture but
continued to maintain innocence. Sensing my strength and determination, the
Bishop decided against torture.
Interviewer
Is it true that burning at the stake can only be ordered by royal authority and
not by the church?
JOA
Yes, that’s correct but if a church inquisition finds anyone guilty of such
things as witchcraft or communication with demons the King automatically orders
execution.
Interviewer
At the stake?
JOA
Yes. After I had yet again reaffirmed that I would stand by my words the Bishop
declared the end of the trial and told me I would be sentenced the next day. The
next morning I was led to a church courtyard in the middle of Rouen where a
stake had been erected. I was given one final chance to sign an abjuration and
admit my guilt and sinfulness. I was told that if I signed I would be welcomed
back into the church and my soul would be saved. I would however spend the rest
of my life in prison as penance. This led me to change my mind. Knowing God
would understand my wish to continue to serve him, even from a prison cell, I
signed the abjuration.
Interviewer
So the execution could have been avoided?
JOA
No. It was God’s will that I should die. My voices had come back loud and clear,
telling me the abjuration was a huge mistake and I must withdraw it and continue
to stand by the truth. I did so after four days of prayer and contemplation.
There were no visions but I continued to hear reassuring voices. A very soft
voice uttered a single word: “Forgive”.
I allowed the word to fill my soul and my very being. I realised how much
bitterness had been building inside me and saw it dissolve away as I forgave
every person I felt had wronged me. I felt lighter.
Interviewer
How did the church authorities respond to the rescinding of your abjuration?
JOA
The bishop, judges and a large group of clerics conferred and quickly declared
me a relapsed heretic. Do you want to hear the full verdict?
Interviewer
I guess.
JOA
There’s a short preamble: “Whenever the
deadly poison of heresy infects a member of the Church, who is then transformed
into a member of Satan, utmost care must be taken to keep the contagion of the
disease from spreading to other parts of the mystical body of Christ.” Then
comes the full verdict and I’m again quoting: “We
say and determine that you have falsely imagined revelations and divine
apparitions, that you are a pernicious temptress, presumptuous, credulous, rash,
superstitious, a false prophetess, a blasphemer against God and his saints,
scornful of God in his sacraments, a transgressor of divine law, sacred
doctrine, and ecclesiastical decrees; that you are seditious, cruel, apostate,
schismatic, straying in many ways from our faith; and that in these ways you
have rashly sinned against God and his Church.”
Interviewer
They didn’t hold back, did they!
JOA
It was a chance for them to vent their anger and frustration. I had been
answering all their complex theological questions with ease and simplicity. They
felt their authority had been threatened.
Interviewer
But you were found guilty nonetheless. Custom and the law then took its
inevitable course. Historical records show that you were led to the stake on 30
May, 1431. You have no memory of
that?
JOA
No.
Interviewer
And no memory of the flames?
JOA
No.
Interviewer
Then about 25 years later you were exonerated?
JOA
King Charles finally made his way to Rouen in 1450 with the English all but
expelled by then. He examined my case, probably for the first time, and noted
for himself the outrageous imbalance and injustice of the proceedings. One
positive thing about my so-called trial was that it was meticulously recorded.
Every word uttered was transcribed, not just the trial but also many of the
pre-trial interrogations I was subjected to in prison. Charles was especially
horrified by the number of church officials, more than fifty, who plotted as a
team to theologically challenge every last detail of my story. It was all of
them against just me. He commissioned a full inquiry into the conduct of the
trial and a re-consideration of the verdict.
Interviewer
That, I believe, was just the beginning of a much more wide-ranging
re-examination of your case, culminating in the so-called “Rehabilitation Trial”
of 1455/56?
JOA
There were two more investigations. An even more thorough one by Cardinal
d’Estouteville in 1452 and, as a result of a petition to Pope Calixtus III by my
own family, a second trial which revoked and annulled the original verdict and
sentence.
Interviewer
Justice at last. And you were later beatified and canonised.
JOA
From egregious sinner to saint. In fact I am not worthy of either. I was a
simple farm girl. God was working the miracles.
Interviewer
We can bring this to a conclusion. Just remind me what age you were when put to
death?
JOA
Nineteen.
Interviewer
I can’t help asking this final question: What happens after death?
JOA
That’s spiritual knowledge. It’s unutterable.
Interviewer
Can you at least reassure me that the teachings of the major religions are, in
very general terms, on the right track?
JOA
No comment.
Interviewer
That sounds like a guarded “No”
JOA
No it’s not. It’s a mere reaffirmation that spiritual truths are sacrosanct.
Interviewer
We’ll leave it there. Thank you Joan. You’ve been an absolute treasure to talk
to.
JOA
God bless you.
Interviewer
And you.
By John Kiley